17 10 2332 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/77e7379831f209cd00c566a8b745c93c.jpg a8d1f3e71abc1ff20bed60b321d545b9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Photographic Collection IIIF Collection Metadata UUID d2406b8f-4266-4f5f-9a61-9180a6a8630d Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Train depot at Alma Junction in the early 1900s Subject The topic of the resource Railroad stations; Railroad cars; Horses; Horse-drawn vehicles Description An account of the resource Freight/ore wagons & boxcars at the London (Alma) Jct. Depot about a mile S of Alma. Fairplay/Alma railroad branch ended here; a separate branch ran on to the N London Mill. Depot closed 1924; only part of it remains in 2015. Source: South Park Historical Foundation, 2004 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Photographs; Park County Local History Archive Photographic Collection; Alma - Junction folder; no. 1787 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1900-1915 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">No Copyright – United States</a> Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ph001787 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state); Park (county); Alma (Inhabited place); Alma Junction (inhabited place) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Deits Bros. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Park County Local History Archive Photographic Collection IIIF Item Metadata UUID 16b1c9ba-80e6-4e20-86f4-f6c76bed446d carriage horses railroad rural vacant land train train cars https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/525a29e2fef190f0fda04e6e2dd23438.mp3 d6c52093cc06e426c1e5a603f8eee133 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/69c02eb891931e0ac195ff7f4a915fba.mp3 4a6efa021e9510e9ea01d80ea9a008a5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound IIIF Collection Metadata UUID 5c855902-aef6-4cbb-bc61-7406bfa5e0aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 13 songs with Charlie Dell and friends Subject The topic of the resource Banjo music; Folk singers; Organ music Description An account of the resource Charlie Dell playing banjo with organ player and singers singing Whiskey Basin Blues, including Lori Kennedy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dell, Charlie Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audiotapes; Music recorded on audio tape; The recording consists of one audio-cassettes with recordings on both sides of the tape. The digitized cassette tape consist of two files. A transcript does not accompany the recording. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Unknown Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dell, Charlie Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted: https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context oh_Dell_C_001a_13_Banjo_Songs; oh_Dell_C_001b_13_Banjo_Songs Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state); Park (county); Guffey (inhabited place) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection IIIF Item Metadata UUID 0d0fdbf8-3235-4a39-a72d-f40ed46bc198 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/3a1e15964af04a1e5567c7911f801902.pdf f0d4403b07b5a22f6c3262f566b3d5de Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Manuscript Collection Description An account of the resource This collection includes digitized documents from the Park County Local History Archive manuscript collections. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text IIIF Collection Metadata UUID 9631a1e0-4de0-421b-9b51-dda484db46dd Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 1941 Jefferson, CO teacher placement suggestions Subject The topic of the resource Rural schools Schools and Education Teachers Description An account of the resource A representative from the Teacher Placement Section of the Department of Employment Security in Denver, CO makes recommendations for hiring staff for the CO School District 21. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dingman, Florence E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Manuscripts, Park County Local History Collection, School Records Collection 2, Folder 2 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/21/1941 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text/PDF Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context mssch02000130 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state) Park (county) Denver (county) IIIF Item Metadata UUID 69320b8b-83f7-423b-b088-dc00f35bb273 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/b0a602debb3e6afcfc23bf7518600fbe.pdf eb252933a353128a8b59925e254ccdf6 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/fb2f86cf28edb5de44b07c7582a05111.mp3 96579a35fc7afed05bc2c9dc076ac133 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/2f9262848346788580efade613da1b30.mp3 0bf246a6807755b363f2796064f22c1d https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/45e870f996d938c6a7c6bec459e90bf5.mp3 2e8ec08b077cb37f244ee1d7dbec0b22 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound IIIF Collection Metadata UUID 5c855902-aef6-4cbb-bc61-7406bfa5e0aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Budde and Arthur Freeman, September 19, 2002 Subject The topic of the resource Educations, Rural; Families – Religious life; Rural schools Description An account of the resource Interview with brothers, Budde and Arthur Freeman where they retell details of growing up in Fairplay in the early 1900s, including the onset of WWII and its impact on the local culture, with a primary focus on school and church. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Cara Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audiotapes; Oral history interview recorded on audio tape; The interview consists of two audio-cassettes with recordings on three of four sides of the tape. The digitized interview consist of three files. A transcript accompanies the recording. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2002-09-18 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Freeman, Budde; Arthur Freeman Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted: https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context oh_Freeman_B_A_001a; oh_Freeman_B_A_001b; oh_Freeman_B_A_002a Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state); Park (county); Fairplay (inhabited place) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection IIIF Item Metadata UUID 66b3219d-c9c3-4986-983d-7ac664c53686 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/3d2af54ef50a91eee49b84e64a7f3abc.pdf 6e85d9f9074775144587b1bad618e75a PDF Text Text Karen Denison Interviewed August 27, 2002 by Cara Doyle Side 1 This is Cara Doyle. I’m here with Karen Denison who is squishing time in for me to talk to her on her lunch break. So we may pause in between for phone calls. But Karen works in the Assessor’s Office in Park County. So I thank you for joining me. Let me start with asking where you were born. I was born in Salida, Colorado, at the hospital. My parents lived on a ranch twelve miles south of Fairplay, just a little west of what’s known as Twin Bridges. How long had they lived there? My parents had lived there since 1941. My father had lived there since about 1939. The place had belonged to his grandparents--his mother’s parents, which they purchased it back in 1930. Oh, goes way back. Can you tell me about them? How did they land here in Colorado? Were they from here? My grandmother’s parents were married in Sweden. The husband came to Cheyenne, Wyoming, to join his brother to work on the railroad. I can’t remember the years, I think it was about four years before he saved up enough money to bring Esther’s mother and one brother, George, to the United States to join him. After they came here he worked for the railroad in Cheyenne, in Smeltertown in Denver. There was another community there, but right off the top of my head I can’t tell you the name of it. It’s non-existent any more. He wanted to return to the railroad and the only opening left available to him was Garo, Colorado, which they thought was the end of the earth. So they moved to Garo… When are we talking, what timeline are we in? Um, they moved to Garo around 1903 or thereabouts, I believe. Somewhere around 1900. After they moved…well, no, I take that back because they had one son born at Garo in 1899 shortly after they got up here. So they came here about 1888, something like that. What was Garo at that time? Do you have any idea what kind of town it was, or the size? It was quite a going concern, they had several homes which were basically little log shacks. They had a store, train station. Because Garo was the hub for the railroad at that time. One branch came in from Denver, went to Garo, then the spur left Garo to go to Fairplay. And then from there it went south down through Trout Creek to Buena Vista. Logging was a primary interest. It was a big concern because they needed ties for the railroads; they needed lumber for building, that kind of stuff. So it was a big shipping center. Bringing supplies in to Garo to be put on a spur train to take to Fairplay. Shipping ties to Fairplay for the mines. Lumber for building, etcetera. That’s how my grandmother met her soon-to-be husband, was in Garo, because he and his brother had set up a logging camp outside of Garo. They had some on Buffalo Peaks and they had one at Garo where they brought ties into the town of Garo. So how did they meet? What was she doing? She was basically living at home with her parents. And they’re the ones who had come in to work for the railroad. No, her parents came in to work for the railroad. Her husband and his brother set up the logging camp and that’s how they met. What are their names? Her name was Esther. And her parents’ names were Johanna and John Johnson. And John Johnson had worked for the railroad and then he’d leased a place from Mrs. Garo and did some ranching when he quit the railroad again. And they stayed in the park until he died, about 1932, I believe. When Esther and Eric came back from Breckenridge and took over the ranch at that �time. They had owned what is now known as the Sweetwater Ranch, or the Sweet Ranch. They had lived over at the foot of Kenosha on the Case place. They had lived at several other places in the park. What brought them up here? Ranching. And what about Breckenridge? How did that tie in? My grandparents, Esther and Eric, after they were married, continued to log and live in Garo. Then in 1915, thereabouts, they moved to Fairplay. They had logging camps at Break(?) Pass, one on Silverheels, and then they built another one over by Jefferson in 1917. Kept it a short time and then moved their entire logging operation over on the Swan at Breckenridge, at what is known as Tiger. What you call the Swan, what is that? The Swan is a valley that goes from Breckenridge back up and basically tops out at Georgia Pass. And there was a town, a little berg over there called Tiger. And that’s where they moved their logging operation. Do you know anything about what Breckenridge was at that point? A very small mining town. My father went to school over there, graduated from high school over there. And then came back over here to work in the mines. What was your dad’s name? Leonard. Did he talk about Breckenridge at that time? He talked about Breckenridge off and on throughout his life, yah. As to some of the things the kids pulled, and pranks and snow, and… Like what? Did you have any favorites? What kind of a prank would he pull? He wasn’t among the pranksters, although they did go, him and a group of the senior boys went into a mine. Tragically went into one of the old mines over there, and I believe one of the students was injured and later died from an injury. But they, everywhere they went in the wintertime they traveled on snowshoes or skis. Horseback or foot in the summer. What was the school like? Was it a big school or was it a one-room school house? No, it was a little bit bigger. There were first grade through twelve at that time. The high school was separate from the grade school. There was enough kids to go to school there. Do you have any idea where the school was related to where things are now? The school, I believe, is still in existence over there. The building. And I believe it’s part of what used to be the court house or something. I don’t know. I’ve lost touch with Breckenridge because I don’t like to go over there. That’s why I’m kind of curious from your perspective. But we can get more to what you remember growing up. So, they came back…this is your…I’m losing track of generations…your grandfather that came back to Fairplay, or no, it was your father that came back. Well, he came back to work in the mines. And basically was on his own at that time. And in about 1932…I can’t remember the year. It was either ’32 or ’36. My grandmother Esther and Eric came back from Breckenridge—I take that back—they came back in ’36. And why did they come back? Because her father, John Johnson, died. And they came back to take over the ranch. �And he was ranching here at what you mentioned was the Sweet? Well, he had lived first of all on the Sweet, Sweet Ranch. Then he moved over to the Case place at the foot of Kenosha. Then they came back and bought the place there west of Twin Bridges. Johanna and John ranched that until he died around 1936. Then Esther and Eric came back to run the place. My father helped him intermittently and then my grandfather Eric died in 1939. And so my dad moved to the ranch to help Esther take care of it. Was that something he wanted to do, did he want to ranch or was his heart in mining? He enjoyed ranching. He enjoyed working outdoors; he enjoyed being outdoors. Mining was an interest because he’d always been interested in geology. There’s a lot of things to interplay and stuff we won’t get into. But he met my mother in 1941. Who’s your mom? Her name was Fern. She went by the name Fern. He met her at a dance in Hartsel which is where he was playing music. Music was his first love. What did he play? He played the accordion; he played the piano. He played by ear. And had been involved with bands for most of the 30s. Any bands we’d know that he played with? No. He was just local. Did they have a local band name, did they have a name they went by? They didn’t go by a name. And where was it in Hartsel that they played? The Hartsel Hotel. Which of course burned. And where is that? Well, right now the Badger Springs store and Bayou Salado sit there where the hotel used to be. And my father met my mother there. And they were married on New Year’s Eve. Was it a big wedding? No, it was just the two of them. Where did they get married? In New Mexico. They eloped. Was there a reason for that? Did the family disapprove or anything like that? Or was it just something that they just wanted to do things simply? Basically make things simply. His mother was not in favor of the marriage, and there was a battle. And so they weren’t going that route. Now where was your mom at that time? When they met, where was she living? She was working in Hartsel. Her parents had been living out in Trump for a number of years. Where’s Trump. South of Hartsel. About twenty miles. It used to be a post office and a schoolhouse and a store. What did they do there? They were ranching. That area has a unique history in itself. But anyway… �We’re going to make Karen talk again, but not today. She has all kinds of stories, I can just tell by her twinkle. So they were ranching. What was your mom doing in Hartsel, where was she working? She worked at the Hartsel Hotel. Doing what? Working in the kitchen, cleaning rooms, just about anything that needed to be done in the hotel because she worked ??? She had worked for other ranches, helping them cook for hay crews. Take care of children. Just whatever it was they needed done, so she had been working there most of her teen life. So how soon did they marry after they met? Probably a year. Then where did they settle? They settled at the ranch south of Fairplay. Is there a name for that ranch? Well, people know it today as the Arrowhead. Arrowhead. But they didn’t call it that then? No. They didn’t go for big fancy names on ranches at that time. It was not the ‘in’ thing to do. It was known by the people who lived there. How big was the ranch then? Oh, gosh, I can’t remember. It was probably around two thousand acres. How did that compare in size to most ranches in the area then? Moderate. Medium size. Can you tell me what they had on the ranch in terms of animals or crops? They raised cattle. They raised a few horses. They raised hay. My dad was instrumental in bringing in some new types of grasses. Timothy and clover were two that did really well. They tried inter-seeding. He raised rye. He raised barley. He raised potatoes. He enjoyed trying to expand on what he could raise and what he could do. Because they also tried to provide their own food. They had a small garden and they raised potatoes and anything that kind of provided the food supply. Where did he get this knowledge? Reading. He probably would be playing around with. The primary part of it. We’ll have to jump to when all of you came along. How many children were there and where were you in the lineup? In the lineup I would be probably the second or middle child. I had a set of twin brothers that were born a little over a year before me that died at birth. And then I came along and my brother came along about five years later. Can you tell me some of your earlier memories of the ranch, as a child? Oh, I loved the animals. We had work horses. We had saddle horses. We had dogs, cats, sheep, pigs, chickens. There was just a lot of stuff. It was very fond memories of being a good time. What was fun? Playing with the animals. �Did you play games? Did you have to do chores? We left the ranch when I was about five and a half. So I really didn’t get into the chores other than I liked to feed the cats, and the dogs, and help bottle-feed any of the babies, calves, or the bottle-lambs or whatever we happened to have. But really didn’t get into the chores until later in life. Can you tell me anything about the house? The house was a big log house. It still stands out there. How old is it now? It was probably built somewhere around the turn of the century. Is it a big house? A big house, in terms of square feet. How was it heated? Wood. At that time. And if I remember right, they did put in a couple of oil heaters. We had a wood kitchen stove and I think we had an oil heater in the living room. Do you remember winters being comfortable. Was it warm enough? I don’t ever remember being really cold. We didn’t have electricity. We had gas lines. And I remember the old crank telephone and things like that. Now was that where you’d call and the operator would answer and hook you up? Oh, yes. Do you remember your number? No, I don’t remember what ours was. I just remember that you cranked the phone and got the operator’s attention and then told her who you wanted. And she would, according to what their call was, it would be one long and two shorts or three longs or one long and two shorts and another long, or however it was the way they went by. The rings was different who was supposed to answer. Did you have much family living around you at that time? Was there extended family living nearby? My grandmother, my dad’s mother, lived in Fairplay at that time. She moved from the ranch just before my twin brothers were born. So that they could have the big house. Her mother already lived in Fairplay. Where did they live? Johanna lived down…well let’s see what sits there now…in behind what used to be the gas station there across from the Friendship Inn. There was a little gray house which now was moved up to a lot in town from that location. It’s kind of the back end of what is now the Western Inn. She had a little house there. It was in behind Art’s garage and out of his wife and sons??? You said your great-grandma lived in town and your grandma. Did they live together, then? No. My great-grandmother lived in behind Art’s garage and my grandmother lived at the location on Front Street. The last person that I knew of that owned the house were the Zachs. But they built a new house there where her house used to be. Her house blew up. How? From a propane heater. In the late ‘60s. Do you remember any talk when you were young about the depression? �Oh, yah. My mother grew up in the depression. And they were affected tremendously by it. They moved quite a bit trying to find work, trying to feed the family and stuff. And she remembers the depression very well. The things that they ate. Cabbage leaves with sour milk on them made into a sandwich. That was one of them. Or they would eat cabbage leaves smeared with bacon grease as a sandwich. Ate a lot of cabbage, ate a lot of potatoes, ate a lot of garden foods. Because they originally, before they moved to the park, had lived in southeastern Colorado. And they could raise a lot of stuff. They had that knowledge. Well they had that knowledge. And if you didn’t grow it you didn’t eat it. I mean, you just didn’t have money to buy it and it wasn’t available. So they grew up raising a garden and that kind of stuff. Was it different then to have a garden here? In terms of moisture or temperature? Probably not so much in temperature. If anything it might have been a little bit colder. But there was more water. There was a lot more water. They were irrigating the meadows so the streams never dried up. They had a continuous feed back into the creeks and stuff, which now we don’t have anymore. My father, when he was a child, remembered talking to an old man who had been a trapper in the park when he was a young man. And he said he remembered when the streams would go dry in the winter because, of course there was no meadows. And there was only a few beaver dams and stuff because they trapped beaver very heavily. So the streams would go dry in the winter and there were no fish. And things like that, you know, that lived in the streams and stuff they would hole up in beaver dams or something, they wanted to be the ones that survived. And then after they began irrigating the park, the streams never went dry in the winter. There was water available for livestock. People’s wells were more dependable. The water table stayed pretty full. Because of the irrigation they got more summer rain—because water begets water. I think the snow cycles are different and most of the people that I’ve talked to seem to think so because they used to get a lot of snow but then it would run off. And it would be gone. You know back around the turn of the century, late 1800s, whatever. There was nothing keep it here. Once they began irrigating and building up the meadows and stuff they still got the snow, but it seemed to stay. And of course the meadows then fed back to the streams on water, so like I said, they had livestock water, that kind of stuff, which we don’t have now. I guess everything goes back, or everything goes around. It’s very sad to see. Growing up the park was ranches. How did that look? Gorgeous. It was lush. Come over the top of Kenosha Pass, for instance. You would look down on Jefferson, which was just a sea of meadows. And like even in July. The grass was deep, it was deep green. It was lush. It was tall; it would wave in the wind. And then of course in August you’d see haying and stuff going on. But the country, because everything was much greener. It was much more, if you’d want to call it productive. There were ranches all the way from Jefferson to Fairplay. All of those ranches, almost every one of them employed at least one family, and sometimes two or three families or hired men. Basically most of them had families. There was a school in Jefferson; there was a school in Como. As they began bussing then most people they migrated and condensed the school districts to Fairplay. Hartsel Ranch employed a lot of people up until the early 60s before that sold out to become a subdivision. There were a lot more kids in school. It fluctuated up and down, but it was more of a family community, more stable. Fairplay at one time had, when I was growing up, this was during my time, we had a full-time pharmacy. We had three full time grocery stores. We had, besides the grocery stores, two of which provided clothing, we had another clothing store, sometimes two more. We had three car dealerships, six or seven gas stations, a theatre, a bowling alley, uh… Quite a few bars from what I heard. We had one, two, three, four. There were probably four bars in Fairplay. People tell me about this fabulous variety store. �Well the variety store was one of the clothing stores. You could buy just about anything you’d want from buttons and thread and embroidery thread to jeans and work shirts and boots and sewing notions and craft notions. We call them crafts now; at that time it was necessities. Then we have to say it’s 2002 and we cannot get these things here. Well, and the sad part about it is, I understand that if things don’t change we may be losing our pharmacy again. And I don’t want to see that happen. The car dealerships were all repair shops, most of them had gas as well as…you know it was a full-fledged garage. They did repairs, they did body work, they sold gas, they had cars for sale. It was kind of a unique setup. A little bit of everything involved with the automobile. We had two equipment, farm equipment, dealerships in the park. Hartsel had a car dealership an equipment dealership, a grocery store, a café, a hotel, another gas station—service station, repairs, that kind of stuff. Actually there was two other gas stations and both did repairs as well, besides the car dealership. And that was just Hartsel. I didn’t know too much about Alma because we didn’t go up there. Jefferson had a grocery store, gas station, a restaurant and a motel. The community building had, there was two or three, at least three, local volunteer basketball teams, baseball teams, that kind of stuff, in the community. What about Como? Como had three gas stations at one time, two grocery stores, they had a couple of saloons at one time. Of course the hotel…when the train was running up until 1938, they had all of the things associated with the train station. And after that died out Como really died out. You said you were living on the ranch only until you were about five. Where did you go then? We--from there we moved to Fairplay. Do you know why? Because my grandmother wanted to play sulk. That must have been a tough transition. My father went to work, he went back to work in the mines for a while then he worked a couple of ranch jobs, then he worked for the Park County Road & Bridge. So grandma owned the ranch and your folks were running it for her. So where did you live in Fairplay? 580 Castello. And then you went to the Fairplay School? What was the school like then? Had they consolidated yet? Somewhat, yah. Can you tell me about the school at all? How many kids were there. I couldn’t give you numbers or statistics. Most of the time I would see we ran anywhere from fifteen to thirty students per class per grade. And the teachers first through eighth grade taught two classes. First and second. Third and fourth. Fifth and sixth. Seventh and eighth. Could you name any of the teachers? Oh, yah. Edith Teter. Cora Osbourne. Side 2 We’re talking about other teachers. The names that you’re mentioning are still names that are pretty well-known in this community. Most of the teachers that were outstanding teachers and stuff stayed here. There were a lot of other teachers who, they came and they went. I mean they were here for a year, maybe two years, and they were gone. Nobody outstanding that I can pick out. �What did kids do for fun during that time? In the summertime you fished, you hiked, explored. In the wintertime ice skating, sledding. I like to read, so books. You know, there was a lot of books. Television wasn’t a big thing until in the fifties. What about the movies? We got to go to a movie once in a while, because the theatre was still here. Do you remember how much it cost to go to a movie? Well, at one time it was a quarter for kids. And I think it was seventy-five cents or something for adults. They usually ran two shows a week. Any famous movies you remember from that time? Famous movie stars? No. The movie stars would have been Liz Taylor, Debbie Reynolds. Oh, gosh, John Wayne. What was it like in terms of your father mining at that time? Do you remember the mining camps or what was going on in that sense? Well he would drive to the mines and stuff and work when they were open. He and a couple of other guys would come up on their own, doing their thing and stuff, trying to make some money at it. It was not very profitable. Any mines that we’d recognize that he worked at? He worked for while at the London. They had that for a while and stopped ??? That was one of them the probably where he was at. Do you remember him talking about life up at the mine? The conditions. What it was like when he came home? Mining conditions were not good. You know, in any estimation. They were cold and damp and hard work and too little reward for it. But he really didn’t talk much about it. It wasn’t something that he really made a big deal out of. Did he ever bring rocks home? Do you remember gold, a ? of gold or anything? No, he brought home some lead and some silver. He had all kinds of ore samples. Everywhere. Because he’d bring home bits and pieces and stuff at work, that would be interesting. Some really pretty stuff. What was your mom doing at this time? Growing up primarily she worked at the hospital… That was the Fairplay Hospital. Yes, the one where the equipment buildings are now on Castello. And she worked there and then for a while she worked at the dry cleaning business, which was over on Front Street. I think it’s a candy (cabinet)? shop now. Okay, that was a dry cleaning. She worked for him for, I don’t know, three or four years and then went back to work at the hospital. When she worked there when she retired?? Do you remember what that place was called? Foxy’s. Clarence Fox was the owner. Do you know anything about him? Not really. Was the Hand Hotel going at that time? �It was going. I mean you could go in there and get a meal. We used to go in quite a bit and get coffee. And it was kind of a coffee shop and stuff. They didn’t seem to mind people coming in and having coffee and sitting there and visiting. It was something to do and get out of the house for a few moments. And they used to hold dances every once in a while. Part of the time they had a bar downstairs and part of the time it was upstairs. As a teenager did you go to many dances? We had a lot of dances. Where were they? Everywhere. Jefferson used to have their annual firemen’s ball every February. Hartsel would have their dances periodically at the hotel. Fairplay would have dances periodically at the Legion Hut. Or the Fairplay Hotel would have something special. Or at that time it was called the Playmor, which is now the Friendship Inn, they would have something going there. So there was always usually something along that line. To go and listen to the music and dance if you wanted to. How would you get there? Did your folks bring you? Did you have cars? Usually you borrowed the family car or a bunch of you would get together and go. You know, and they would borrow a family car or whatever. You got there anyway you could. Sometimes you walked. Then did you graduate from Fairplay school? What did you do after that? Uh, huh. Got married. What’s your husband’s name? Jim. How’d you meet? Did you meet Jim in town? Was he living in Fairplay? He was ranching. He was working for a ranch outside of Fairplay. I met him in a bar. My dad was playing music that night. And he had just come back from shipping cows for his boss, and was headed home. And he decided to stop in and have a beer before he left, before he got home. My mother had known him about six months before I met him—about five months. Little did he know, that one stop. Sealed his fate. So how long did you date? About two and a half years. And where did you get married? In New Mexico. It’s a family trait. Yes. Where in New Mexico? We were married in Taos. It was fun. We didn’t want anybody to know and we kept it a pretty good secret for quite a while. You mean after you got married you still kept it a secret? For how long? About four months. Were you really young? Or what reason did you want to keep it a secret? �I got married before I graduated from high school. So I wanted to graduate without everybody knowing. Actually we kept it secret longer than that. But it was fun. It was fun. We just did things different. I’m not a conventionalist. Where did you settle down then? Where did you live? We lived on the ranch where he was working at the time. The Barbie. He doesn’t ranch any more. We lived there—the first five years we moved twenty-nine times. Just to different ranches? Was that an economic thing? I think so. They put us wherever they needed us. Who’s they? Whoever Jim was working for. They kind of put us wherever they needed us, so we just moved from one place to another. Were you doing ranch work? Uh, huh. And then we went off on our own. Started your own ranch. We started our own outfit. And where was that? Well we leased several places in the park and moved back and forth around different places. But we pretty much… And what about the kids? When the kids came along they just did what we were doing. Tell me about the changes you’ve seen in ranching. As I alluded to earlier, the biggest thing was the water going and the ranches being subdivided and chopped up. And one of the things I think to me is the biggest, most significant loss, and I don’t think anybody really understands it, is that back in the earlier times, hay was shipped out of South Park to the czar of Russia, to the queen of England, for their horses. Because there is no place that produces as high a quality feed as was produced in South Park. The hay is a short hay--it’s kind of hard to explain--but you can feed less hay to an animal than hay brought in from Gunnison or San Luis Valley or whatever. You feed this amount of South Park hay, you’ll have to feed this amount to sustain the same feed content. The nutritional values, yah. Feeding South Park hay, and stuff, you don’t have to feed as much grain, say to a horse. You don’t have to give him as much grain to maintain better body condition. When did that start to change? For me coming here I think of it as really dry, even almost barren, in the areas that you’re talking about. Right. The change started in…the water started being sold in the very, very early sixties. Do you know what triggered that? People could make more money selling their water than they could make selling their ranch. Most of the people—I won’t say all—but most of the people who sold their water, sold their water here, sold their land, and went someplace else to set up shop. So it set them up in a ranch somewhere else where they could make a better living? Either set them up or they could retire. And they could not make that kind of money ranching— ranching economics just wasn’t there. Ranch life, you either love it or you hate it. There’s no in between. Was there a bitterness or resentment at that time, when those first people started to sell off their water? �Oh, yeah. Did people grasp what it would do over the long haul? My father fought the Denver Water Board back in the late thirties, when they first came back, because they had already purchased Antero Reservoir and had started building up the dam and stuff at that point. One of probably his biggest soap boxes was the water misuse. He fought them tooth and nail. He fought them every avenue he could. Because he foresaw what actually has become a reality. He foresaw happening and tried every way he could as an individual to fight it. If you ever get a chance, read the book “Camelot Desert” by Mark Reasoner. If you want to know something about the water issues and stuff. It’s kind of dry reading, but he calls it like it is. There is a lot of bitterness. There’s a lot of hard feelings among the water people because so many people have moved in and they don’t understand the crucial necessity of water and this area. We sit in a basin up here. Now we have water up here and underneath is a basin. This water underneath—and this is where the conjunctive use deal comes in—the water underneath feeds out, wherever else it goes, it feeds out underneath someplace. It contributes water to the underground table somewhere along the Rocky Mountain Range. There’s a guy that Jim works with out east of Colorado Springs who watches Leadville in the winter to see how much water he’s going to have way out by ? And he said—I think it’s his grandfather that started the place— so they have watched this traditionally for decades and have a historical background. Snowpack in Leadville affects what they have for water out there in their springs and ponds and stuff. And so by taking this water away from the hay fields and stuff, we drop down the level. If that conjunctive use project ever comes back, we’re going to drop even more. If that’s the case, there’s nothing out there. There’s nothing out there for who knows how far. It’s not just what happens here. We’re at the top of the line. With the meadows and creeks…?, they always had water to call upon. With underground storage in the meadows and boglands and wetlands, there was always water to tap and call for. We don’t have that now. If we have one more winter like this last winter was, they’re going to be up a creek without a paddle. Have you ever seen a drought on this level here? On this level, no. No, never. Tell me about ranching now where you are. It’s tough. Right now the way it’s looking, we may have to sell out. We may have to sell our cows because we have no pasture. We can’t afford to buy $250 a ton hay. What does it normally cost? In a normal year. In a normal year if you have to buy hay—which we have been fortunate, we’ve been able to raise a lot of our hay—if we have to buy it, it usually costs us anywhere from fifty to seventy-five dollars a ton. It takes about two ton for cows. Okay so at $250 a ton, we’re not talking any other costs, any other maintenance, you’ve got $500 in this cow and she’s going to bring you a calf that’s going to bring you around $400. Economically you’re already shafted. That’s not paying pasture, that’s not paying the gas it takes to feed them, that’s not any of your other costs. Colorado has already lost seventy-two percent of their cattle. Now you’re talking this year? This year. Colorado as a whole has already lost—I don’t know if this is as of the first of July or the first of August—people have sold out and moved out of Colorado, seventy-two percent of the cattle. San Luis Valley has lost ninety percent. And there are still people talking, they’re going to have to sell. Because we’ve got no pasture. We’re not going to have anywhere to water. If we stay in business we’re going to have to come up with some creative ideas. Do you mean literally like water for the animals to drink? Yes. We’re not going to have any place to water them because them there is no water in the creeks, there’s no water in the springs. Most of our springs have dried up. We don’t expect them to sustain water. �What about the forest service or BLM through these years? The forest service used to be a friend of the rancher. And I think depending upon who’s in there on the local level, it still is. Or they try to be. The environmentalists have made life miserable because they don’t understand. They don’t understand that to maintain a healthy forest you have to cut trees. You have to get rid of the old trees in order for the new ones to be able to make a chance. To clean up the forest floor so there’s—well, you can leave some dead, but you leave a firetrap if you don’t clean up the forest floor. Mother nature will get rid of it one way or another. I think the biggest detriment to the forest service and the BLM is the environmentalists who do not understand if you don’t graze grass it will die. Grazing is a fire detriment. It cleans up the dead grass. It gives the grass a chance to reproduce. It aerates the ground. It provides fertilizer. It is what Mother nature intended as a balance. Wildlife cannot do all of it alone. In fact, if you take the cows off, the wildlife go with them. My analogy is you go to a salad bar. You’ve got this one bowl of brown, icky lettuce. And right next to it is a bowl of very fresh, young-picked, crisp green lettuce. Now which one are you going to eat? Wildlife is that picky. Wildlife will go where the cows have cleaned up the old dead stuff and then eat the new fresh stuff that’s coming up underneath. When did this change occur with the environmentalists? It started back in the 60s. And what happened here with your ranching as that started? We have seen most of the ranchers lose their forest permits. Lose them for what reason? Because they don’t want cows on the forest. Environmentalists have put so much pressure on keeping cows off of the forest. Is this due to population changes up here? Somewhat. You have more of an urban population moving in. You have a much greater urban population. You have more people go into the forest and they don’t want cows in their vicinity. They don’t want ‘em around, they don’t want ‘em close. They don’t want ‘em around the waterways where everybody wants to camp by the creek and the cows go to the creek to drink. The environmental influence has been telling everybody that it’s not good for cows to be allowed on the creek because they cause erosion. No, they don’t. Because they will go where it’s gently sloped. They use the Tarryall River where it esses real bad, as to caving in the banks, and washing dirt into the river and carrying sediment downstream. That’s Mother nature’s way of working. The cows don’t cross that because they won’t go to that high bank. They’ll go to where the sandbar goes out into the bend. And they’ll go in on the low side and back out. But environmentalists don’t understand that. They see a cow trail—it starts out this far from the bank, but over the years the river keeps encroaching and so pretty soon you’ve got the cow trail right next to it. Nobody understands, people from the city do not understand life cycles with the environment. With grass, they’ve proved in Arizona, that by taking the sheep out, where the Navahos quit raising sheep, the grass died. There’s nothing there to scatter seeds; there’s nothing there to poke it in the ground. What has it done in town? I think we’ve seen a change in the population because of those ideas we’ve lost our grocery stores. For a number of years we did not have any. We lost our pharmacy. We’ve had one come back, but again the way people have done insurance and stuff, she may have to close her doors. We’ve seen all of the gas stations go bye-bye. We’ve seen all of the service vendors go bye-bye. Because, well, I’ll go to Denver because I can get it done down there cheaper. But then, you can also buy your groceries, buy your gas, buy your clothes. All of this has gone away because the �urban people, its something to do on the weekends. Travel has made this much easier, the faster cars, better highways. That has precipitated it. Where do you see this heading? If you’re out on the ranch where do you see the ranching going. What do you see the population here, what kind of town is it going to be? Bedroom community for Summit County. And the ranching. They will get their recreational area and that’s all that’s going to be left, will be recreation. That’s what everybody has been working on for the last twenty years to make this a recreation center. Fishing, boating—of course if we don’t have water, we won’t have to worry. Hunting—they have really been pushing recreation. Snowmobiling in the winter, winter hiking--I’m not saying this is bad, but they’re not stable. You have two sons. Can you tell me their names? Bob is our oldest son. He’s married. His wife is the assistant manager for the Western Horseman magazine in the Springs. They live between Woodland Park and Deckers. They were in the middle of the Hayman fire. They did not lose their home, but they were evacuated for two weeks. They have two horses and a dog. And your other son? He lives right now in Penrose. He is raising two sons and he’s ? My oldest son also is in partnership with his father-in-law on a backhoe business where they did basements, septics, driveways, utility lines, etcetera for building. So Justin is the second son. He’s the one with two children. Tell me what you would want to add to teach them what South Park was like. You’ve got two little grandkids. Can you add anything that would give them an appreciation of what life was like here that they won’t see. Basically the ranching. The ranching is important. Anything you’d tell them? To appreciate the necessities of life. I think that if I was going to tell anybody—it’s probably thirty years too late, but I think the biggest travesty the county, the state people as a whole would be selling the water. Because it will have the most devastating long term effects. You’re painting a pretty dim view. Is there any positive news in all this? It depends on people’s choices. I mean they could reverse some of it. But I don’t foresee that happening. I think if they would allow it, I think they would be putting feathers in their nest. Do you think this drought maybe scared some people into different action? No, the cities wanted control of the water, they wanted to be able to control it. They have to see it in the reservoir. Or have to see it on paper, that it’s there. Having it in the ground, they don’t have the concept that it’s there providing for them. Maybe in another ten or fifteen years. But I doubt if I see it in my lifetime. Thanks so much for taking the time with me today. I really appreciate it. � https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/fe7a98226a1cff3755ec7ed45e930e93.mp3 81310f56825500d7a1dcef88d7353619 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/cc2be60b8364958f1e73f3ef6312aaf3.mp3 cfa78046e7fc045a7c7d829daca1165c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound IIIF Collection Metadata UUID 5c855902-aef6-4cbb-bc61-7406bfa5e0aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karen Denison, August 27, 2002 Subject The topic of the resource Work and family; Ranches – Colorado; Farm life Description An account of the resource Interview with Karen Denison recalling details about Garo, Co., ranching, railroads, Hartsel hotel, father's role as a local entertainer and agricultural contribution Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Cara Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audiotapes; Oral history interview recorded on audio tape; The interview consists of one audio-cassette with recordings on two sides of the tape. The digitized interview consist of two files. A transcript accompanies the recording. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2002-8-27 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Denison, Karen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted: https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context oh_Denison_K_001a; oh_Denison_K_001b Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state); Park (county); Fairplay (inhabited place) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection IIIF Item Metadata UUID 36b56c93-bdd4-412f-8585-38a39091a7ca https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/81d5d8c08b3759b89fa6378abc661a1d.mp3 080735ba77fd305120b502b3262c8134 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/98610a39f9e99b6ca87c4e3f47e181c7.mp3 e16c7fe77a951157e879f511768261c0 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/0e1805f41d9119095ef7da86861d3e03.mp3 533b97058ac3512b8f17bee22d5f3b58 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/32ff4429992100aa55c245e07071240f.mp3 0a802ef9b5535a7923858faa39da3703 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound IIIF Collection Metadata UUID 5c855902-aef6-4cbb-bc61-7406bfa5e0aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack and Marge Burton, May 31, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Mines and mining; Families – History; Genealogy Description An account of the resource Interview with Jack and Marge Burton discussing mining, family, and rural living. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Cara Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audiotapes; Oral history interview recorded on audio tape; The interview consists of two audio-cassettes with recordings on both sides of the tape. The digitized interview consist of four files. No transcript accompanies this recording. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-5-31 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Burton, Jack; Burton, Marge Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/ Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context oh_Burton_J_M_001a; oh_Burton_J_M_001b; oh_Burton_J_M_002a; oh_Burton_J_M_002b" Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state); Park (county); Alma (inhabited place) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection IIIF Item Metadata UUID 6fc3b58e-9275-41fc-a772-c3937e10631c https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/bbb0d71c22c010641324ee8fdbfb8d3a.mp3 56ef70937d16d14e98520330a2eb7635 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/be94438391f97602ea474e2723101490.mp3 20f09067f8d755b588f08a24f2c148ea https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/d4a665fdca9373c019fe3a629a70f2ea.pdf 8ec5d5362c2d08e34d15d0167d26a8c8 PDF Text Text Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 1 INTERVIEW BY CARA DOYLE DATED 9/26/2002 CD – Cara Doyle GG - Ginger Grissom This is Cara; it’s September 26, 2002 and I’m sitting here with Ginger in her beauty shop and if we get interrupted, we’re going to put it on pause so if you hear noise, that’s just part of the shop busy-ness because we still need to make money. Right Ginger? Right. Tell me where you were born? In Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City, and can you tell me about how long your family had been there? Was that a long time family place? My family, since probably the 1800s, my grandmother - - my mother’s side is Indian (tape pause) has been in Oklahoma since the 1800s. Mother’s side was Indian; they came from Texas. And now what tribe was that? Cherokee. They did not go to Reservation – they skipped. Huh! Do you know how that happened? Did they tell any stories about how they managed to get away? Yeah, they just left in the night. I don’t know that much about that. I have stories that you hear but… and then they moved to Oklahoma; west – no eastern - - western Oklahoma around Cheyenne, Stroud, Strong City. What did they do first? Do you know - how did they survive? Were they… Farming. They farmed. Do you know what they farmed? Wheat probably. Did they have any animals at that time? My mother was I think always thought the Indian sign. She had a coyote, had a wolf… You’re kidding! Now this is growing up? When she was growing up. Oh. She had broke her back and had back surgery. (tape pause) Okay, a wolf and a coyote? So these were her pets? Mm-hmm (affirmative). When she had broke her back and I honestly don’t know how. I think falling off of (inaudible) but it could be something. But when they - - when the ambulance came to get her, they had to trick the coyote into the closet; would not let them near her and so unfortunately, the coyote had to be put down when she was gone because - - which devastated her, naturally. Because they had to do surgery; she was in the hospital and nobody couldn’t get near it… except my mother. Oh, how sad. Yeah, and then later on, she had a wolf. We’ve had every animal in the world. My mother’s a big animal person and … Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO Okay, so they - - so she grew up in this western Oklahoma farm. Mm-hmm, so did my dad. Can you tell me anything more about the farm? Were they raising cows or did they have their crops… You know, my Grand-dad was a District Judge and he had Muscular Dystrophy so he - - I know he didn’t’ farm. My grandmother did a lot of farming, but they just did your basics, you know? Do you know how he got his education? I would think that would be a pretty big deal for him having… Right. You know, having run, when everybody was being put on the reservation to becoming a District Judge? That’s pretty impressive. Okay, he was not my gran- - okay, my grandmother married him. He was not Indian. Uh-oh, so we dumped your first grandfather along the way. Where did he go? We didn’t have a first grandpa. We don’t know. You know, see, this is the other thing (inaudible). Yeah. It was pretty funky in 1921 when my mother was born and my grandmother as it turns out, was fond of sleaze obviously (laughter) but I loved her. Oh, okay. And so we didn’t hav - - so, we haven’t got a clue about him. CD So we don’t really know what happened to the first grandfather but the grandpa you know was the District judge and he was English? No. Was that the one? No… No, that’s my dad’s side. Okay. I don’t really know that. You know, I remember him, but I don’t know much about him. Huh. He died when I was very young. Okay. And just stories – just very - - real artsy; played music, he played the fiddle, he was obviously a pretty neat guy, very intelligent, I have all of his law books,but I don’t know much about him. Do you know what life was like for your mom growing up? Rotten. Rotten, rotten, rotten. Small town Oklahoma; illegitimate, ugly. Very ugly. Did they have enough money? Was poverty an issue or did they do pretty well? You know, they did okay. They did not have a great deal of money. When the Depression hit though, my grandmother, because there was a little money from my granddad when he died, started buying up land and property that was taxed, that people lost. So she, as it turns out, owned a great deal of a small town – Cheyenne, Oklahoma – which was the biggest gas well ever. So it was… Huh. GG That’s where they produced or had the biggest gas well in this particular town, but she owned both sides Main Street. Park County Oral History Project 2 �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 3 Wow. She owned quite a bit. That’s pretty progressive I would think for that time. Mm-hmm (affirmative). She was …had had a rotten life and never wanted to go there again. Do you know where your mom went to school? Yeah, it was Strong City and so did my dad. Was it a big school? Oh gosh, no. Was this a one-room schoolhouse? I think they’re probably one-room schoolhouse; yeah, ‘cause I think they had six in their graduating class. Okay. Did she tell any stories about the Depression about what they ate or about… Well,, they raised most everything. My dad said that when he was growing up that they would - you always had your chores you had and they rode - - both my parents rode to school on a horse. They lived out in the country and they both rode you know, they had to ride a horse to school. The old “five miles barefoot in the snow?” Uphill both ways? Oh yeah, but they rode horses to school and they both lied out of town opposite ends of town. I mean, they weren’t close. Okay, now we didn’t talk about your dad’s family. Were they from that particular area? Mm-hmm. (affirmative) Do you know much about them, your grandparents? Yeah, I visited my grandparents ever - - stayed with my grandparents every summer in Elk City, Oklahoma. What was their life like? They farmed but then when I was real little - - but I think when my dad - - my granddad was a …linesman. Tell me what that is. That is electric. He worked for the electric company and he did the lines, you know like he would climb the pole on his 80th birthday, I have a picture of him waving his hat and he used his spikes and went clear to the top of the pole. How neat. Yeah, neat guy. But then they had a little store in Elk City and my granddad had kind of a hard time. When he was fairly young, well fairly young – he was in his thirties - kids were playing out by the cars and he was driving down the street. He wasn’t going very fast; matter of fact, he wasn’t hardly going very fast at all, but a little boy ran out in front of him and he hit and killed him and he didn’t drive for years. Ohh. And then of course, you kind of have to. When I was with him growing up, we had two tickets for (inaudible) and slow. I do remember that on the Interstate. Yeah, he just couldn’t do it. Couldn’t go, you know. I can understand that. Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 4 It was all he could do just to drive but he finally did and then he farmed. He had a farm, raised cows, and you know, a certain amount of crop and then everybody raised their own food. My grandmother made her own soap; they had chickens, they had you know, it was just a regular farm. Did they, either side of the family, talk about some of the Depression stories? You know, not really. I mean, everything was obvious then because the people did everything. They made everything. So they provided for themselves. They made; they baked, they certainly no, I don’t remember going shopping. They made everything. They made their soap, they made their clothes, they made you know, we had feather beds. We had… Had they plucked the feathers, is that what you’re saying? Yeah, yeah. I mean, they did everything and so to go to a store was pretty big-time. You know, when they opened their little grocery store, it was just a little bitty grocery store, but they had a lot of friends here. It was so hard that they had accounts. You know, I can remember my granddad saying, “There’s no excuse for people doing without food.” He grew - - you know, he raised his but then there’s people who were born in the cities in the bigger - - you know, they couldn’t … and he had friends that you know, it just devastated him that people would do without food, but they just didn’t have food. So we opened and they ended up probably losing it. I mean, just because they were too generous. Gave so much away. Yeah, but it was okay. That part never bothered him, so… and then he just - - and then he had a little farm again and… After the store closed? Yeah and then when they got too old to farm, he - - my granddad was a guy that got attached to all of his animals except for chickens, but he knew all of his cows by name, would call them all in and so when it came to butchering, time to - - he would take them to market, sell them and buy strangers… to kill. And I could never stand whole milk when I was a little kid; just couldn’t stand it. And I was a city kid kind of, what I thought was a city kid. Now when you say whole milk, this probably wasn’t from the store. Was this right from the cow? This is what we call “raw milk.” Right, it’s from the cow, I mean, it’s got the cream on top, you know, yeah. And I can remember saying,” I only like Bordenmilk.” And my granddad, the next summer when I came, said that they had bought a cow from Borden’s. (laughter). How cute! Drank it ever since! Oh, you’re kidding? Mm-hmm. That did it. Yeah, just, “Well, okay, if that’s a Borden’s cow, it’s fine with me.” Aim to please, that was it. That’s sweet. Did you do chores? Oh, yes. What kinds of things did you do? Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 5 Actually my entire life consisted at my grandparent’s on the farm was making my (inaudible). Stolen eggs, stolen pecans… Stolen. And the prettiest mud pies you’ve ever seen. I would rip them out of the (inaudible) the eggs because the shine on your - - mud pies look exactly like that if you used an egg and you got real pecans. (laughter). Did you have pecan trees right there on the farm? Yeah, yeah – cherry trees, pecan trees. I had chores; wash day was the big day. My grandmother did her hair and her wash same day. She used bluing on her hair, bluing on the clothes; she never got an electric washer – refused. She said that they didn’t come out the same. Even when they moved to town by my folks, they kept a wash house. She just would not budge! Because I know you, I know you’re kind of an ironing fanatic. Did that come from that time? Can you tell me about the washing and ironing? You know, I’m sure my grandmother ironed. My mother was a freak about ironing. We weren’t allowed to leave to house if we had wrinkled clothes. You just didn’t. And what do you used to iron? You have the old-fashioned machine that… Oh, I have a presser, which just creases (inaudible) so I’m back to ironing. Let’s see your – what are they called – mangler. Well, there are manglers but I don’t - - they make them. I don’t sue that. I have one but I don’t use it. Those were better for sheets, towels, you know, and for pillow cases. Two ironing fanatics! Yes, I do my pillow case. I do not do my sheets. I can’t put on wrinkled clothes. Okay. I can make wrinkles. Let’s jump back and see where this problem started. (laughter). Tell me what year you were born. ‘49. Okay and what was life like as a little child? Where did you live, what kind of town was it? You know, my folks - - I lived next door to where my parents live to this day, which my grandmother lived in the house that we lived in when I was about five, we lived in that house. They’ve been there ever since. Hmm. Still there. And this is in what town? In Nicoma Park, Oklahoma. And is that a little tiny town? BBA little suburb of Oklahoma City. Okay. And went to all Catholic schools all my life. Tell me what kind of schools were like in those days. Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 6 You know, I have great memories. I don’t have bad memories. I hear stories, but those were the different nuns I guess. I have really good memories of all of my schooling. Great nuns, great - boarding school was hard. Now why were you in boarding school? ‘Cause my chances with the nuns were better than with my mother,. She was very strict. I mean, we just didn’t’ get along and so… What was she like besides strict? She was very generous. She did - - my mother was a good woman and she - - I didn’t even have store-bought clothes until I was probably in high school; she made everything. But she was amazing! You couldn’t buy clothes like she could make. She … So you weren’t embarrassed. Some kids will say, you know, they didn’t have purchased clothing. Oh, God no. Are you kidding? No. I looked like I always walked off a bandstand I mean, always. She made everything and she was so meticulous that you never wore wrinkles, you know and we worked. Mother was actually, as I look back, I got the best of my mother; I got her strength. She wasn’t kind to me. It’s a long hard story as far as the grandmother but, my grandmother was probably of my best friend and I know that was hard. Now which grandmother is this? This was my mother’s mother. Okay. But my grandmother was not nice to my mother. I think she blamed her for not being popular, people not liking her. Well, you know, that’s a self thing and that’s a tricky one. Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so I think when my mother would look at me, she would see my grandmother and wasn’t much on me. She loved me. She was good to me, she didn’t like me, which was so you know, it’s not a requirement. What about your dad? My hero in the whole world! Why do you call your dad your hero? He is my hero. He is a man’s man; he is kind, he is talented, he is loving , he is … he doesn’t have a problem, an ego problem. He knows who he is, he likes who he is and so he’s comfortable with him, you’re comfortable with him, and he raised us the same. You had a couple of siblings? Mm-hmm, yeah. What were their names? Bob and John and actually, I’ve got to say they’ve always - - they’re great guys. What did you do as kids for fun? I pretty much entertained myself and aggravated them! Were you - - where did you fall in the line of (inaudible). I was the youngest. Okay. Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 7 Pretty much the pest… you know it’s so different. I slept outside most of the time in the summer. I’m not a loner but I like outside and so if I was scared in the house, if I heard a noise I would get my pillow and my blanket and I’d beat it outside. Slept on the patio most all the time. I loved it. My brothers - - I was the tomboy. My oldest brother was scholastic – very smart. The middle one, John, was aim to please. What did kids do for fun then in that town in Oklahoma? Well, I had playhouses and on top of the flat barn I had a play house; I mean, that was my whole life for a couple of years and I had one brother John, that was scared of heights and I would talk him up there: “I swear to God I’ll help you get down! See you sucker!” (laughter) and he would spend the entire day on top of the barn. Oh no! You can’t say your story’s not a good one; it’s your story! (laughter) I know! It’s pretty boring. Before we jump, I just have to ask about you - you talk to - - what was the famous Indian you were talking about earlier? Well, I didn’t know, but Chief Iron Kettle was from - - they had - - it wasn’t the tribe Iron Kettle. This was Chief Iron Kettle. There is a tribe and he - - they had a place up by Cheyenne, Oklahoma, between Cheyenne, Strong City, all of that area and my dad, when he was a kid, they used to go up there and around all the teepees and they would just watch them; they would ride their horse up and it was like a little slope; like a dam area and they would just watch them and then on the weekends though, they got to know some of the kids and then they would just go up and hang with them. I mean, that’s what’s neat about that area. They still - - there’s a lot of history; they were good people. Just the whites and the Indians, they all seemed to do pretty well together, but the reason my dad and his buds would sneak up there was to try to get arrowheads. (laughter). And they just - - so… and I don’t know that much about that. Mother’s side is - - I’ve got some glass negatives of some chiefs and cavalry that his family I’m going to get done. I might be able to help you on that actually. Oh, cool. Because they’re glass negatives and they’re starting to come off. Okay. And I want to get it done. Were the Native American values - - were you raised with those or was it just…did that carry through your growing-up time or was it more of a separate… was it an older time? That’s an older time, I mean, in general it is just because I went away to school, went to Catholic schools. You wore uniforms, you were… Where did you go to boarding school? I went to boarding school in Atchison, Kansas. Mt. Saint Scholastica and all of grade school and everything, always Catholic schools. Okay. When did your family - - now we’re kind of in a different place. We’re talking more about Oklahoma but this is a history project on Park County. When did your family first start coming up to Colorado? Let me see, I was about twelve, so that was about 41 years ago. What started that? We have a friend that had a lumber company, a lumberyard in Breckenridge, Colorado; the Billington Lumber Company and they started way, way back and they’d been there and they had a cabin on Weston Pass and these cabins were built – well, they’re eighty-five years old and they were built by their family. There were six original cabins and they were all people from Oklahoma Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 8 and they found this - - most of the stuff was brought up by ox and cart because it was so rough that that’s how they got everything up there. Is this still the family cabin that you have to this day? Mm-hmm (affirmative). Is it still that same… Mm-hmm, yeah. Okay. And so there’s four still original families of their cabins. How neat. And there’s been two added so there’s really eight now and but four of the original people are still family and so… And you’re not sure who discovered Weston Pass? Was it… You know, I ‘m really not. I think it was the Billingtons, but they had a friend that had came up here – there was a dude ranch on Weston Pass and he was a friend of - - he actually doesn’t have one of the cabins. The friend that founded this camp went back and said, “Oh, my God, what a great place,” so they came up, a bunch of these people and the Porters are one; Bill Porter, and his family, so they are up in eight-year bunch. So a lot of people would probably know. Miss MCNamara knows Bill Porter, the Pollcocks - we knew the Pollcocks; a lot of people that had been - - and the Blacks; Clarence Black was an owner. The Porters, the Black, the Beales, The Billingtons, the Goulds, and the Wassons. Sothat’s what… So what’s your number? I sit twelve years coming up here would (inaudible). You know, it amazes me when I see kids up here who don’t know how to play. When I was a kid and I came up here, you hiked. You did everything. It was like God just gave you this place and you just could do anything you wanted. We hiked, we did everything. Did you go fishing? Oh yeah. We fished; there’s a stream, the south part of the South Platte runs in front of it and there’s so many animals! We would go in the evenings and watch the beavers work and we’ve had bear, we’ve had elk, we’ve had deer, we’ve had big horn sheep. When I was little, they used to have sheep literally lily-white sheep. They had sheep pens on the top of Weston pass and when we were kids, we would go up and watch the herding them all. They would bring them up there in the summer to graze and then pick them up the fall and we would go watch them try to gather them all and there used to be chutes and there would be pens and… Now were they on horseback? Uh-huh (affirmative). Would they - - cowboys come from the ranches, or … They were on horseback and they - - I can remember now and then, one or two would get left and we - - they are good! (laughter) We would try and catch them for (inaudible) and they’d be little! And I always worried but then, that’s how nature works. Some are leaving. You know that’s what happened. I mean, because they would be left. There would be nobody - - and we would work for days trying to get them and we could never catch them Never catch them! That’s the nature thing. That’s something. Did you come up in the wintertime also? Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 9 No. You cannot get, without being on snowshoes – they don’t maintain the road so you could only get so far. We’ve came up in winter. John and I dug our way in many a time and we spent a Thanksgiving up there one year that I stayed overnight; nobody else would stay. It was 22 below and I stayed so that Thanksgiving I had it 72 when everybody came. We had to dig our way in; we had to dig our way to the toilet, dig our way to the water. It was amazing, but it was great! But if you get stranded, I guess it would be ugly. I spent a summer at the cabin. Really! When I moved up there. I lived there for three months Oh, neat. Well, me and my cats. What do you remember about Fairplay during the time when you first got here? You know, Fairplay was - - what was cool about Fairplay and Breckenridge was you could still see miners on their horse, had a pack mule; I loved that as a kid. You would come into town and you would see some old guy and he would be - - have his horse and he would have a pack mule and he would be mining. They would have mining claims and they would come in for… Do you remembering seeing the rocks or the gold or… You know, there’s still gold up there. We’ve found gold. Oh yeah. We panned for gold. It’s a little nippy. Did they show you how? Did you talk to these old guys and learn about what they’re doing? You know, we’ve been very fortunate. We would meet a lot of different people and when I was a kid, OSU (Oklahoma State University) had an agricultural - - that would come up every summer and they were always trying to figure what would grow here, what would grow there, then what could be raised, and then Colorado Mining School would go up there a lot; School of Mines. And so we did learn; you would meet people doing - - they were up there mining or they would do things for their student, and so yeah, they were pretty patient with, you know, a scraggly blondeheaded kid. (laughter). What did you see – can you describe to me – seeing the miners around? I mean, were they up the placer or was machinery going, or the dredge or… You know, you would see - - no, I didn’t’ see many dredges. We had been stopped by people with big guns… the Ruby Mine was one. Somebody was mining it and we were just kind of lost actually, driving around and they literally met us on a Jeep – two guys with big guns – “You weren’t invited and you’re not welcome.” Certainly will turn you around! “Okay.” We’ve seen people have claims; they’d be out there, usually just - - they might have a sluice box set up; they might it and it’s amazing how they lived! You’d just see a mattress in a - - you know. What did they have? What were they living in? In the old mines. In the old buildings next to it. They would - - it was amazing. So kind of the old cabins that you see that are falling apart up there now. Yeah, and then some of them, they would wrap tar paper around. Do you know - - do you remember how they cooked or what they were eating? Well, they cooked just on most of the time, on open fire. We had, the cabin, of course you cooked with wood, you eat with wood, it’s all wood stoves. There’s no - - outdoor john, a spring house, we would keep our food in crocks down kin the spring house, which isn’t the (audible) we still do that. Tell me about that because most people wouldn’t have heard of a spring house. Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 10 It’s (inaudible) built; it’s a little building over a running water, over a spring and you would fix it so things couldn’t flow down and you’d either weight them down or you would - - we had a crock we would put in it and that’s cold water! So that acted like a refrigerator. It is, yeah. Those are - - it’s where we kept the meats, the things that would spoil easily. In the cabin, we have what we call our frig, is a bay window with a screened outside and a sliding door inside and so the outside is screened. So - - and it’s cold. So things would stay fairly cool and the wind’d blow through it and it’s all screened so flies don’t’ get in and then this sliding doors glass doors – on the inside. So the cold didn’t come in, right? Right. Was it common do you think, of people living up here? Was that typical? I would think. Do you remember any people from that time? You hear a lot of famous names around here - were any of the folks… You know, I wished I could remember the lady’s name, but there were the Aimsley Ranch was and it’s the first one when you go up Weston Pass, that very first little - - it had the little old cabins right on the road. Cannot remember the lady’s name. Why does she stand out in your mind? Denise Ogleman (inaudible) I’ve ever known. She was about 4’ 11” and she always wore the old bonnets and when we were kids, we would go up there and talk to her. You could buy eggs from her. You didn’t know what you paid for eggs, do you? No. She remembers Baby Doe - - she was a little kid when that was a stage stop and her parents had it and that was the change, the horse change stop. Okay. And then the Augustine, which is the next going up towards Weston; I mean, it is on Weston but it’s up higher, that is where you would stop for food. You would have lunch there, dinner there; you could sleep over in them. They had little cabins and there was also another change deal. Weston Pass actually was pretty famous back then; they had Father Dyer, who almost died on Weston Pass; had a really bad accident; Baby Doe, if Leadville - - if Mosquito was closed or for whatever reason, they did Weston. And this lady was a child there. She was a kid and she remembers all these - - she’s passed away now, but when she - - she said that she remembered all these people and she said especially Baby Doe because when they came through, she was so dressed up! I’m sure it was one of the times that had to (inaudible) they went through several. Different times. And this is the Tabors. The Tabors, right, uh-huh. They were going through - -who else did she tell me? – Possibly Molly … Brown. Oh, Molly Brown? Yeah. I remember her talking about. There was a lot of different people that at some point, she would remember them stopping because that’s where they changed horses. They would change teams there. You would sit and she would tell you these stories? Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 11 Well, actually, she was not a real good sitter. She had a little bog and it’s a bog out by the barns and she grew her herbs there. I mean, really boggy. IT was like mossy boggy, you know? And she grew all her little stuff and we would have to go out there with her and she would just talk. She was little-bitty. Just the sweetest thing and just had great stories and dairy and honey and … and it was pretty cool. Was her husband still alive? No. No? She was all alone at this place? Mm-hmm (affirmative). I’m sure she had kids End Side A Start Side B You’re worried that you’re boring! How cool is that? Ti knew this lady who knew Baby Doe! No, I know and I wish I could remember her name! They’re like names out of books that seem so far away and yet here’s a connection that is actually told about it. Yeah, and they really weren’t that far away. We were talking as we were switching the tape about how tough these people were. They were, they are, yeah. It is a shame to me that we, as the younger generations, did not get as much from them as we should have. I do kind of hate that. As people keep telling I should have talked to them, the people that are already gone and so that’s - - I mean, you’re the connection to these other generations that we missed out on, what you remember of them, the old stories … Yeah, it’s pretty neat. We can capture. What about Breckenridge at that time? I can remember Breckenridge was only like 3 streets. It was. I mean, it was … Were they paved even? Someone said there was just like a main street. You know, the main street was paved; the others were not. Frisco was not paved. Frisco only went - - you only - - I hated going to Frisco; it was so boring because - - but … Why did you go to Frisco as a kid? We would go to the store and to the laundromat. Pop liked hitting the different towns’ laundromats. He just kind of liked for us kids to see different things. This was way before there was no dam, there was no highway, there was no Interstate and Frisco, when you went in, Main Street was dirt and it went to where the Historical Park is. And that’s it and you did a circle. It’s just a couple of blocks then. Yeah, it was and there was grocer and he did his own meat and had it hanging; I mean, Pop liked that and there’s a lady that ran the laundromat back then and he loved talking to her. That was pretty modern I would think, a laundromat… up here. Well, yeah but they weren’t … Did they have a lot of travelers? I mean, I’m assuming the interstate was - - what was that at that point? Was it like a little highway or had it already been put through? What? In Frisco? Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 12 Mm-hmm (affirmative) No, there was no highway. You went over Loveland Pass. You did that and you went - - I’m trying to think now how we… It’s like a two-lane road going over… It was a two-lane road. No, there was no interstate at all. And Dillon was still there, the town of Dillon. Okay. Where the lake is, yeah. Okay, we got a little interruption. We’re talking about Dillon and Frisco and can you describe what Dillon was at that time? Was that a mining town? You know, I don’t remember it being a mining - - we didn’t go to Dillon much. Frisco was about - I mean, we drove everywhere. My dad was… What were you driving? At the time, it was a Ford – we always had Fords and I’m sure it was a yellow Ford; we always had yellow Fords. So that’s probably what we were driving. What was Breckenridge like? You were saying when we were taking a break, you remember even miners walking through there with horses and stuff. Always. Yeah, you did. We saw one guy going into the Gold Pan – I’m assuming it was the Gold Pan even then. I don’t know; I knew it was the same location. I think it was, because Shorty used to go. Right and he - - across the way – of course, was nothing you know, up from it. It was a big open field. On Main Street there was nothing! On Main Street, yes. It’s hard to imagine. And so - - I know. And he - - this - - he’s on his horse, he had long hair; he had all leathers on, he had three pack mules. So he was obviously did it for a length of time is all I can figure. You would always see horses though, tied up in town. You would see them around. Not a great deal ‘cause there was cars; it was getting modern. It was like say, three Main Streets. Actually, it was not a big deal, Breckenridge. It was nothing like it is now. Well, of course not. Can you say, like for someone who’s just can’t even imagine that time, what have you seen in changes in the towns up here? How have the people changed or the building or… They call it progress - it is pure greed. They’ve taken the history away. Frisco. Frisco used to be - I know I said way back then it was boring, but it was more of a family town. It didn’t have a ski resort. It wasn’t a mountain. The people were like us over here. Okay. Summit County is like Park County is now except we’re even more like Alma. And Alma - when I used to drive through, when we would come through here - I have to say, I love this town. I love the people in this town. Twenty years ago, I did say, “I would not live in that town if it was the last town on earth!” Did you really? I did. In the little building right over here across from the river, that is a residence now and it was way back, even farther than twenty years ago, it was called Second Hand Rose and it was a little pawn shop; a little thrift store and they had – it was like a little you know, it was a fun little store. There wasn’t a walk here… but the houses were pretty much - - actually, Alma has not changed a great deal to me. Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 13 Oh, and Breckenridge? Breckenridge is just… a joke. They’ve ruined it to me. Mm-hmm. There is no history the same. Breckenridge, you would notice, it always had the Victorian homes; there’s still the Victorian homes there, but it doesn’t have the same feel. It’s lost its home to me. What was so special about that time. You know, it had heart and soul. You could feel it. You picked up the vibes from the forefathers; you really did. You would go in a place and you just picked up different energy. When I think now, I think of this as a place where increasingly wealthy kind of people are coming. It’s a “wanna-be” town. Was is it a wealth place in that time? Oh my word, no. Who was your average person… These were average, middle-class America that wanted to be in the mountains and this was progressive compared to… even those three streets. You know what I’m saying. Mm-hmm. It was more progressive than Fairplay and Alma. Three main streets! Do you remember when the ski resort came in? In the forties. Okay. Do you remember people talking about it? Do you remember your folks saying anything? I don’t. I don’t at all…‘cause we didn’t come ‘til the fifties. Okay. So …but the people that - - the Beales and the Billingtons they built a lot of the condos up until the sixties and they you know, retired. As far as the ski resorts, I have some magazines from – and they actually are quite old – they’re not old; the ones I have, but I know the magazine, Rocky Mountain Life. Huh. And I have some from the forties and they talk about the ski resorts, when they first started and so… those would be good books for you to check out. Yeah, I’d love to see that. I just got them back. Okay. You know, we came to get away from. You know, people say that now: “Well, where are we going to go now?” It’s not like it used to be. The energy’s not like it used to be. Now it’s hustlebustle, rush; everybody’s in a hurry; they’re - - it’s a money thing. When did you opt to move here? We started about talking it as a little kid that you missed it. When I was a kid. I knew when I was probably 14, 13, that I would be living here. But now it took a long time. We didn’t’ mention what was your career? Still is your career. Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 14 I was a hair dresser when I moved here. Okay and you were a hair dresser in Oklahoma for many years. Yes, many years. ’67 and so I had a salon in Oklahoma for years and years. Hairy SituationsHair Power – and then Hairy Situations. Okay and then when you came up here, what did you do? I lived at the cabin for three months? Were you alone? Did you come with your husband or … No, no I just - - it was just me and the three girls. Okay, ‘cause we’ve kind of skipped over your husband. Didn’t know a job – I mean, I had no job, did not know one person, had no house, no anything. You just said you and the three girls. I meant two girls and two cats. Your son, Stephanie, your daughters. And my two (inaudible) although they did not live with me that summer. They traveled with my parents and I was moved up to the cabin. This was after you left your second husband. Uh-huh.. (affirmative) We kind of skipped those guys. Yeah, it’s okay. (laughter). She just (inaudible) Lucky you! And it is amazing because I didn’t know anybody. No job, no house, I had two kids and I knew that they would go to school in Summit County. Mainly because I wanted them to have - - to know more. Summit County I will say, you have kids - - back twenty some years ago, people didn’t stay the same length of time they do now. Okay. They were here a few years, decided it wasn’t for them and they left. SO you have a lot of best friends as kids. That’s our pay. It’s a good thing because you grow; you learn a lot and that’s what I wanted for them and so we… So where did you first start out? Where did you live? You went to the cabin…. After the cabin, I moved to Frisco. And you opened the salon. Well, no right off, I worked with Jimmy Covington in Free Style Hair in the Holiday Center and then I realized with two kids and no child support that I had to have another job, so I bartended at the Holiday Inn. I cut hair in the day; bartended at night. Tell me about dinnertime. Well, I believe in dinner with your families, so when I took the job at the Holiday Inn, the requirements were that I had to have 45 minutes every night with my kids… and we had dinner and we did. We sat back there and they had dinner in the Holiday Inn, in the bar. You said you put a tablecloth on and… We did. And you sat down and… Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 15 And we had our little dinner and… it’s just one of those things I believe in and so - - and they were - - you know, it was a family-orientated place in general. I worked two jobs for nine years and they both graduated from college. Yay! Graduated from Summit High and college and now I’m - - when Stephanie graduated from high school, we moved over here. Okay, and had you met John already by that time? Oh yeah, John - I met John in probably ’83 and he was too young, so I waited until ’84, that I wouldn’t go to the pen! (laughter) We’re going to run of tape before you get yourself out of that hole! It’s an okay thing. He’s quite a bit younger than I am. And we’ve talked about that. You were married twice previously. Mm-hmm (affirmative). And you have never actually married John, but you’ve been together for 17 years. We have. We have a commitment. And you consider him… My – yes. Husband – life-mate… My life-mate, yes. It wouldn’t be complete – we need to talk a little bit about Lenore. Well, Lenore is probably - - all my stories normally are about Lenore. We could ...that’s right. We haven’t done that because I think there are so many we need to do separate tapes sometime and that’s a special thing. Yeah, yeah because she’s part of it. When Lenore, the first time she ever went out of Oklahoma, was to Colorado with me. Mm-hmm. And I loved this one story. She wanted to how the cows walked on the side of the mountain! “Well Lenore, these cows in the mountains, legs are shorter on one side,” and she’s like, “Oh!” And then a little while later, she’s like, “You lying sack of --.” And of course she has (inaudible). (Laughter) So you and Lenore - - tell me, you had the shop in Oklahoma and when you left and moved to Colorado… I gave it to her. And Lenore took over. I gave her the shop and I said, ‘You know, if you ever decide to move,” because I always wanted her to move out here, but she just didn’t find - - couldn’t find it it the way that she felt comfortable to leave, so she kept the salon and I said, “if you find somebody that’s as good to you as you were to me, you give it to her. If not, sell it to her.” Well, she sold it (laughter). She had it for many years and then finally decided to move out her. And you all moved up here. Okay. I won’t make you tell more about her today unless there’s something special you want to share but Lenore moved up here and she did pass away and she was the most, most unique friendship I’ve seen were the two of you. Park County Oral History Project �Ginger Grissom Fairplay, CO 16 She lived here four years. Tell me about some of the fun things up here that you did. Everything Lenore and I did was fun. I mean, we woke each other up every morning. We were truly soul-mates. We did dance therapy and we would go out and dance, dance, dance and then come home. Over the years here in Park County, what kinds of things did you do for fun when you moved up here. What places were around here? Park County. You know, John and I are not - - we don’t socially - - we don’t do a lot. We go to the cabin; I dirt-ride; we rode motorcycles, we - - there’s tons to do. We’ve done a lot. Out and about, we never were - - I possibly would go out and about. John only stays home. You know, there’s lots to do. There’s places to go. I bartended for so many years that truly it’s not something that I enjoy overly doing. Mm-hmm. (affirmative) And when I go to a bar… Because you were doing outside things I guess when I think you picking flowers and … Well now, I’m a picker from hell! Lenore was a digger (laughter). We’d pick and dig. We were pick and diggers (laughter). She loved - - she would have been a good geologist; she always liked digging and fossil-y stuff and I was a picker and that’s how we did. We called each other “Pick” and “Dig.” That’s an interesting note to end on (laughter) but I know you have a customer now and so we’ll close for today and I thank you and we will get back together and fill in some of the holes. These people are going to wonder…About pick and dig (laughter). End of tape. Park County Oral History Project � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound IIIF Collection Metadata UUID 5c855902-aef6-4cbb-bc61-7406bfa5e0aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ginger Grissom, September 26, 2002 Subject The topic of the resource Businesswomen; Mines and mining; Women in rural development Description An account of the resource Interview with Ginger Grissom about growing up in Oklahoma, Cherokees, historical families in Park County, Fairplay miners, and her life as a hairdresser. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Cara Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audiotapes; Oral history interview recorded on audio tape; The interview consists of two audio-cassettes with recordings on both sides of the tape. The digitized interview consist of four files. A transcript does not accompany the recording. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-9-26 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grissom, Ginger Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted: https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context oh_Grissom_G_001a; oh_Grissom_G_001b Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state); Park (county); Fairplay (inhabited place) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection IIIF Item Metadata UUID b2e1914d-30e0-47fe-92dd-a1629ee49f5e https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/773a23b3bfc496cc0e7b009d7c891c32.mp3 4427fd291dd4234b970d28825db79d27 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/b666fd168c74deac5e003292002d357f.mp3 6c6d3b05860d530500d8ff5a39615ef3 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/7adb5e7410c6078105aa766a55e413f9.pdf 6678b975d4d05aa3729f00fd2ef52364 PDF Text Text GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 1 INTERVIEW BY CARA DOYLE DATED 08/12/02 CD – CARA DOYLE NB – NORALENE BELCHER This is Cara Doyle and it is August 12, 2002 and I am chatting with… well, you’ve got a long name; can I just call you Noralene we are at the Alma Town Hall, so if there ‘s a little echo, we’re sitting in the north room of the Town Hall, which used to be the Alma school, and which Noralene, also in time we’ll get to that. Let’s start with -- tell me, tell me how you first arrived in Alma? They told me I was three months old; I was born in June, 1932. My father was a truck driver; he always had a job, he made $25 a week and when Roosevelt came in spreading the money around, he asked that the truck drivers drive a truck half a day, let someone else drive their truck the other half. So he had some of his friends, and the only one whose name I remember is Red Phillips, came to Alma to prospect for gold. Okay. And as far as I know, we lived here…well, I know we left here in 1937 when I was in first grade. Okay, so about five years you lived here. I think. I’m not certain about that, but I think it must have been. What is your full name? Gladys Noralene Patty Belcher. Okay. But everybody calls you Noralene. Yes, that’s right. Mkay. And who are your folks? My mother was Gladys Lucille Henderson Patty and my father was William Jesse Patty. Okay, and do you remember where they came from originally? My mother was also born in Denver … Okay. And her family lived there and my father came from ?Verogol? Arkansas. Do you have any memories - - well, no, you were too tiny. Do you have memories of your folks talking about Denver at that point, where you lived, what neighborhood you were in… Well, I actually know that I was born on Madison Street and that it was fairly close to my grandmother’s house that we looked for yesterday and is now turned into luxury apartments. Oh, Okay. Near downtown Denver. And her address was 232 Madison. PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 2 Huh! So --Okay. What’s your first memory of Alma? Probably …running around with my dog and we lived in the cabin up on the other side of the – the - where they were working the placer. Now I know you were really tiny, but you seem to have a lot of memories of – of being quite young around here. Mm-huh. You were describing the house earlier; can you talk about the house or houses you lived in around here? The house that my father built and he and his friends hauled the logs in, dragged them behind an old Model A, and he hewed them and also sawed the floor boards and built the house himself. He was an older man, he was twenty-one years older than my mother and he’d been born in 1890. So he had a real hard life most of his life and… I think that’s why he knew how to take care of so many things; how to make a living, how to build that house by that spring that he knew was there because nobody else had built up there. Huh. Now why – why did he choose that particular land? Did he purchase the land or was he allowed to use it, or do you know --I don’t know. I was always told that it was Government land and someone may have told him that you know, like he was a friend of Vaughn Van Epps and somebody might have just said, “Why don’t you build over there on the Government land?” Mm-hmm. Although Mr. DeMarco told us that it hadn’t been Government land, it wasn’t at that time. Okay. But he had homesteaded other land and he actually homesteaded land in California near Palm Springs. Huh! But he let that fall through you know, if you don’t - - if you don’t build, you don’t keep it up, it reverts back to the Government. Did he have a background in mining? Had he done that out in California or somewhere else? Not as far as I know. No, he never did. Okay. So… And so he was here placer mining. Yes. Did he know what he was doing? (Laugh) Or did he have someone teach him? PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 3 He – he must have learned - - now I said Vaughn Van Epps was his friend and of course they are big in this country, so perhaps that’s where he learned or maybe somebody who came up with him; maybe that’s where he learned. But … as far as I know, before he came here he didn’t have any experience. But we had some neighbors named Kelly; they had I think three or four sons and a daughter who lived close to us down that way (gesturing) and… Okay, now you’re pointing at – this is the Alma placer? Yes, oh, we lived over there… Okay. And they lived – I don’t which direction that is; is that kind of … Let’s see, north. North. Uh-huh. Of us and we also knew them in California … Oh! And they moved to Gold Country in California and I remember they asked him to come up and look at some property that they were going to put a claim on or buy, so he must have learned really well. Here. And they respected his judgment and I can remember him looking and saying, “There’s quartz up there.” You know, pointing up the hill. Uh-huh. The gold then is probably down here… Huh! Someplace. So he - he did pretty good I think. Okay. And now … (interruption) The cabin! You have more memories of the cabin! That was her husband poaching ________?? (man’s voice inaudible in the background, presumably her husband). Oh, okay! It was – it was a square, it - - he dug back into a hill so that the first floor had a door coming out the front… Mm-hmm. And the second floor went to the outside on the back. It was level, the second floor was level with the hill on the back. Huh! Okay. And ... the first year, it didn’t have a roof and he put a tarp on it and I remember that we must have had a canvas door because our dog … got in a deer trap and was gone like for three days and I remember that when back, him scratching on that canvas that he wanted in. He also dug a hole back into the hill where a root cellar tie - - where we kept apples, onions, potatoes. I don’t recall ever putting any meat in there, but he did tell my husband that he kept meat which might have been in the winter. The second year I don’t what happened, I’ll drink it all. PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 4 She-- she has family poaching. Okay. Yeah.... where was... This… Oh, the - - when he was on his way home from work, he would stop behind the café and take then number ten hams; ten tin cans and took ten snips, flattened the cut the bottom and the top out, and the second year we had a tin roof. Ah, parts of that tin roof are still up there. Really! And rusted and so on. The old stove that we had is still there. Oh my goodness. The cabin was vandalized sometime in the fifties I think and burned and the fire must have been terrifically hot because the – the stove was actually buckled. We saw that today. We brought a piece of it. The heat in it. It was very hot. And the bed, one side, the long side, was against the back wall, the head was against …the other wall and two sides were open and it had like a log or post that held the other corner. It wasn’t actually - - and then he fixed that so he could bed springs and so on on it. And then I think us kids slept upstairs and we were there mostly in the summer. When it snowed, it - - you get a lot of snow in Alma and it gets very, very cold and we moved to town; we lived in several houses, I’m not sure… I know they called the house … said it was Mr. Logue’s house and I’m wondering if the - - he is a mine owner, owned the house and we lived in it? My mother worked at the hotel, the lady that owned the hotel was named S… Do you know what hotel? You know, I don’t but I – I keep seeing that five house up there where the street branches off… Just up the main corner up toward Buckskin? Yes. Oh, okay. And it s a big old house. It’s ringing a bell? And I thought - - I keep thinking that was the hotel. The lady that owned it, her name was Sally. Okay. And - and we had a room there, so mom cooked and cleaned and everything for Sally and we had a room. Now when you say you had a room, do you mean for the whole family or for the kids to stay while she was working, or… No, we had a room for the whole family. Most of the time when I was little, I remember we had only one or two rooms and we always had - - I always slept with my sister. I never, ever, until I was about twelve, slept by myself or had twin beds. PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 5 And we - we shared a bedroom with our parents and I can’t remember any other houses. (Turning to her husband?) Have I ever mentioned any other? (Male voice in background, inaudible). Oh! When- -I’m not sure when it was, but I can see it in my mind now, one of those old-fashioned silver-looking trailers they used to always paint them with aluminum paint, came up the hill and they had inside Maytag washing machines. And as I remember, each one had its own little stand with red carpet and they had a mangle iron and my - - so my mother bought a washing machine. Now this was a sales person who came to town with this trailer? Yes, yes! And she bought a washing machine. That’s a pretty big deal! Yeah, and ?thee? and a mangle and then she was in the laundry business. And this house that I think was Mr. Logue’s was- - we called modern because it had polished floors you know, and the walls were intact; they weren’t log walls and it may had elec—it probably did have electricity, but it sat up against the main road and had a – a spacement underneath, or a cellar. Is that house still here? I don’t know. I keep – I keep looking at the houses that are built like that at that end of town and I don’t quite recognize them…but my uncle, D.A. Crowell, came here in - - when we had the cabin, he slept in the body of a model A Ford. It was set on the ground and it was just like a room! It had doors and he had a bed in there and drank Four Roses whiskey (laughter) I used to remember those pint bottles! He helped her when he was here with the laundry. So he wasn’t mining? He was … was he older? I don’t think so. Yes, he was her uncle and he may have come here to visit or to see what was going on and of course I never asked before so - - and I’ll never know now you know, if he did or not unless he filed a claim. Yeah, we might – we might meet someone else who – who remembers him. Now you went to school here you said, but you were pretty little so… Yeah. I started school here in the first grade when I was five and I think my teacher’s name was Miss Snow. So… Okay. Now was actually in this building? Yes, yes it was. Do you have any recall -- recollections of coming in or what it was like, or did they ring the school bell, or… Well, I don’t - - that much. I remember that my favorite color was red and I just really just liked to make it really red and shiny. So you were coloring? Yes, when we colored. I think we must have lived pretty close and I think some of my parent’s friends were possibly the custodian and his wife because I remember he and my dad making angel wings out of wire for school. For plays you think? PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 6 Yeah, for a play or for Christmas and the ladies covering them you know, with ?_____? Hmm. (Male voice in background, inaudible). Oh yeah, I remember those; the coat hooks. They’re in the same place? Yeah, come in there and hang up your coats and then somebody told me this used to be two rooms. Oh! So I don’t know how that was but before I started school, and when we were living close, I remember my mother told me this (I - I don’t really actually remember this) but I would come to school and bring my dog and I think the dog laid down outside and I’d go in my sister’s classroom and play and the teachers must have been very tolerant because I was just allowed to do that and if course, if Mother missed me and then she could see the dog you know, she knew that I was here. I don’t think they worried about me a lot when I was with that dog because when we lived on Gler- Glenarm Street in Denver and the school was just across the street, he would not let me cross the street until there were no cars coming. He’d walk back and forth in front of me and keep me from crossing the street. So… Do you remember, was there any kind of a playground or did they… I don’t remember that. Do you remember what you did for fun? Did they have like a recess time… Oh, I’m sure! Yeah, they did. Yeah. And I remember – I remember my sister doing this, but I don’t remember me so much. That they got jelly in those - - in a can which was maybe a five-pound size, would you say? It had a tight lid you know, that would tighten up. And they put holes in the lid and that’s what the kids carried the lunch to school in. (Male voice in background) There’s a handle on it. NPB: Yeah, there’s a handle on it, a bale. Some people I think got sorghum molasses and think that - - in fact, we have one of those, don’t we? It’s about so high (gesturing) about that big a round (gesturing). So it could be the size of like a mason jar that we would talk ___? Oh, bigger. (Female voice in background) It was like - it looks like a paint can. Yeah, and the – the lid was tight you know, so you didn’t lose anything, but they had to put holes in it to, of course, let the food breathe and everything so your sandwiches didn’t get soggy or whatever. Like they could here. Do you remember any mischief or games that used to play with your sister or neighborhood kids? I remember when she was nine and I remember the day she played hooky and she was responsible for me, so she took me with her and I don’t remember getting in particular trouble over that; they probably just said, “That’s not right, never do it again,” but I remember some house up on the hill from the school where the - - PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 7 another girl went with us. They peaked out to see if anybody at school was looking for them you know, they probably didn’t even miss us but I don’t remember any - - I remember the old theater … Hmm! Where was that? I’m not sure… it’s on a - - it was on a side street someplace… In Alma? In Alma. Really! And… it seemed to me like it was kind of like a school gym, where it had a balcony around the top and that they may have played basketball or something in it and then it was also used as a town hall meeting place … I wonder if that could be the Ladies Aid Building. NPB: I don’t know. Okay. But I remember that my sister won … Robert Louis Stevenson’s Child – Child’s Garden of Verses because she used to do readings you know, what readings were? In the olden days and used to do the you know, the oratory type of thing. We had the big book for a long time I expect her children still read. Ohhh. (Female voice in background) And you guys played house. Oh yeah! We played house on this big rock that was… Now was this the stepping rock that you guys built? Yeah, the stepping stone rock and … Can you tell me more about that – we talked about that before we turned the tape on. Oh, Marco said that it probably weighed forty tons and he hadn’t ever moved it and that what cinched it with him, that we had the right area for the house. And we should say that e -- you folks, before we started this tape, actually went up and tried to find some of these places that we’re talking about and Mark DeMarco took you up there… Yes. And so you found a rock you used to play on. Yes. And he knew immediately when I mentioned that rock because it’s very out of the ordinary and it has actual steps to go up… I -I think it would be three steps for a little child and we used to put our toys; our rocking chair and thing up there and play; play and play for a long time. I know your daughter mentioned you playing house. Daughter: Yes. What was that about? PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 8 Mmhmm. Well, that’s with the rocking chair and our -- you know, if we had dishes and tin dishes, or whatever. (Other party) We used to make mud pies… I used to make those over here (laughter) and Mr. Logue… Over where? When we lived in Mr. Logue’s house, it seemed like he visited us sometimes and I made mud pies and he would actually eat them! That’s what my mother told me. Sister: Mr. Logue’s house. (Laughter) He would actually eat ...the mud pies. That’s a pretty nice – pretty nice man! Uh-huh! Can you give me any memories as far as things around town; I mean, were there horses, were there burros, what kind of shops? Oh, yes. There were burros and I was always saving pieces of rope to tie together to catch one and they were so gentle you know, and everything and I can remember catching them someplace and I thought it was by that ru -- building that I call the hotel. It was terraced and if I – I‘d get him down here and I‘d get up on the other so I could get on his back. And they would just I think let me ride you know, for awhile and probably somebody would take me off of it before I could get hurt but… that’s -- of the other buildings okay. I remember there was a drugstore and the druggist gave my mother the old newspapers to wrap the clean clothing in when she had ironed the shirts or whatever. I don’t know if we said that. When she bought that washing machine and ?son? she really started her own business… (Daughter): Yes. Then doing laundry in the area. Yes. And she bought a mangle iron which was - - they used them all the time still in laundries, big laundries and I’d love to have one, that was a roller with a hot plate that came down and she knew just how to do those collars and how to do the back the shirt and the whole thing; she could do it much faster than they do anymore. But the druggist would give her the day-old papers to wrap the clean laundry in and this is awful… I would go and tell the – the druggist that my mother sent me to pick up the papers because I knew he would give me candy. (General laughter) And I – I’m not sure - we saw that -- a drugstore in Fairplay that’s supposed to be the Alma – and I don’t know when they took that away, if that was the one that I went in to pick up those papers or what. Okay. But, and then I remember there was a birthday party in a saloon. (laughter) Really! PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 9 NPB: Well, you know people if people had little kids and it was during the day and I can remember there were five or six of us… You know what? They still do here. Do they? Uh –huh. So… (Sister) And what about Christmas? Well, at Christmas we went to church… and we were given those red net stockings it was something like an onion bag that they use these days and we always got an apple, an orange and Christmas candy and we probably got a toy. But I remember the apple and orange because those were probably hard to come by up here in the winter and the candy I remember because it wasn’t wrapped; it was always stuck. (laughter) to the bottom of that - - the foot of that stocking. And we had real trees and Santy Claus brought the tree and it never appeared until Christmas morning. And we had real candles that are about as thick as your little finger, a little longer maybe (gesturing) about that big a round and this last winter I wrote this in our family newspaper and we had little clips you clipped it on the candle holder; it’s clipped on, the little handle is there, (gesturing) and my youngest daughter found some and bought them for me. Oh, neat! So they’re brand new! Never been used. But we didn’t have to worry about fire then because we had so much water and everything, evidently. Now was the water from a spring or from the snow, or … Well, I’m thinking from snow. The trees weren’t dried out, you know. Things were … (Female voice in background) Green. Green. And then if you know, we burned those candles in the morning, Christmas morning and then they probably weren’t lit anymore so… I can’t remember any more that we did at Christmas. (Female voice in background) You were here for the fire. Yes I was here in the fire in 1937… Okay, do you remember where you were? We had a room in the hotel and that hotel may not be here anymore because there was a “hell fire and damnation” preacher came through town and he said that Alma was so wicked - I think there may have been seven or eight bars, saloons… that God was going to punish them I guess is what he meant and shortly after that, the town did catch on fire and it burned right to where that creek comes down across the road. Mm-hmm- Buckskin? And the hotel was right by that creek and I remember there was a saloon … that the one I went to the birthday in. The birthday party? Was right across that creek to the … PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 10 You don’t remember whose birthday party, do you? No, I don’t. I remember saying she blew - - she was five years old and she blew out all the candles but four. (laughter) So, my math wasn’t too good I guess. And now the night of the – the day of the fire. Was it evening? Was it daytime? It was night time. And do you remember seeing the flames or what was... Yes I do. I remember that we were in the hotel and they were looking for my shoes, looking for my shoes and I said, “I got some on.” I already had my shoes on. My dad had a Model A that he hadn’t started all winter because he was working near town and just walked. And it started up right away, which evidently back then, and as cold as it was, the wind was blowing and I can remember sheets of tar paper rolling down the street coming down at us, so he got us. (Male voice in background, inaudible) Pardon? Female voice in background) Was it burning? Burning tar paper coming down the street. So he got us all in the car and our few belongings and my mother had a cedar chest that my oldest daughter has now and …it was not the kind that are veneered or anything, it was cedar. I don’t think that he made it, although he was a carpenter and it had legs on it. And he put it on the fender of the car and we had to back up that hill over (gesturing). Oh, we didn’t say that! Why wouldn’t you… Back up - we would back up because that was the strongest gear? (Husband) The lowest. The lowest gear. It would not - - Model A would not pull that hill. We went up there today in a Jeep four-wheel drive and that’s what it would take. So anyway, that cedar chest fell off the car three times off the fender and the third time, he left it where it was and then my oldest daughter had asked, “Why would he do that? Why would he leave it?” And – and it was so cold, and it was so cold and he had two little kids and he was trying to get to our cabin over there where we could be sheltered and away from where that fire was. It never would have crossed that placer mine I’m sure. And somebody else came along the road; I think it was one of the Van Epps and they picked up the cedar chest and took it to their house and then I remember later that Mom and Dad heard they had it and they went there and got it. So… that was the … (Sister) That cedar is really old! ‘Cause I’m seventy and she had it before that. Now did your dad then go and fight the fire? Did you - - do you remember what people in town did? No, you know, I don’t – I don’t remember that at all. I remember when I was little, I never got frightened very much. I always felt secure that it was – that everything was taken care of. The only time I ever got frightened was when I’d go fishing with my dad and I’d keep looking for that bear! (Laughter) To come out of the woods and get me! But other than that, I was happy-go-lucky little kid, you know. So… (Husband, inaudible) PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 11 Yes! People - - there’s a dug-out up there and that’s the one that they had thought was our house because it used to – it was dug back in a little hill. And it’s still here? It’s still there, but there’s no top on it now. But - - so somebody must have taken the planks off, but I can see that—I have said, it was one room and there was a little bedroom behind and you can still see that and that… I don’t know who lived in it first and I don’t think they made it, but there was a couple named Alice and Heavy Raymond and they had a little boy named Neil Raymond and one time when I think back here… 1954 probably, there was a slit in the door and I could look through there and the front door to the bedroom – that little bedroom and I could see my baby bed and I knew it was my baby bed because I remembered that they gave it to these people, I didn’t need it anymore. It was just white – white… Wow, and it was still in there. And it was there! Still in there so... course, that wasn’t so very long, about that’d be seventeen years after… and then there was an older woman and her son. I don’t remember his name but her name was Mrs. Millaway I believe, and I can remember going there to listen to the Joe Lewis match. Scmeling was the …prize fight. Oh my goodness! And sitting on her bed. Well, when we went to those places they were so small and they really didn’t have a lot of chairs it was like we always - - kids were always on the bed you know, playing or we knew if they were going to play cards that we’d just lay down and go to sleep there and then they’d pick us up and take us home. And then … who else? We came up here with Red Phillips and … I mentioned the Raymonds. and Vaughn Van Epps… Were there kids that you played with that you remember names? Well, I remember playing with the Kelly’s but they were older than I and the youngest one, probably fifteen, sixteen to eighteen, his name was Burnell and there was a Bernerd and ( first side of tape cuts off). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------second side of tape Okay. We’re back but we – we – yeah, I started this thing and I didn’t watch the tape. You were talking about other people that you remembered here and kids you might.. And I think I started to say that Mrs. Kelly was - - had been a music teacher I think. They were also from Arkansas and her husband looked just like Will Rogers. (laughter). (Sister or daughter): Now, was it Will Rogers? Okay. It looked just like, talked just like him, but she had a baton that she directed her kids. The all played instruments and she’d go “Ta Ta Ta Ta” (gesturing) when she did that and I – so I named her “Ma Kelly,” we called her Ma Kelly and her TaTa stick. (laughter) And I remember once I was helping Burnell saw logs with one of these big long saws; it was for wood for the house and had it on a saw horse and I don’t know where - - where I was sitting you know, I thought I was helping probably more than I was and I pulled it back and it went across my shin but it was -- it just barely hit me, it wasn’t anything bad, but I remember that he used to take a little PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 12 piece of a pine block or something and carve it and say there was a little - - like a little house and there’s a little man in there cooking, you can smell what he’s cooking you know, and you could smell the fresh pine so they were quite a nice family. That’s the same family that later moved to California and that my dad would go and you know, give his opinion as to whether it was a good mining claim or not. Do you remember any - anything about the mining or miners at that time? Stories from your dad about it… I didn’t really… I don’t -- did he ever sa - - he didn’t ever tell much about .. he was pretty quiet man. But I do remember that while we were here in town, that somebody lit a match near a barrel of carbide and carbide you know, is the stuff that you put in them, the miner’s lanterns, and you add water and it heats the gas… it must have been damp or something but it exploded and I remember his face being so burned and how you know, scabbed and all these whiskers growing through it. And that’s what I had told Nancy and said, “I thought my father worked right here in town… for Mr. Logue, and she said, “We didn’t have a mine here in town,” but Marco says that it’s like… (Male voice in background, inaudible) just right back here where he found the shaft you know, where the – I mean the timbers where they had the entry to it. Well and I think that the tent camps from what I understand, were built in this whole area that is now actually empty you know, some of the marsh area from what I understand so what was town may have seemed even closer at that point you know, you had tent camps all along there so you may be remembering … I don’t remember the tents but I remember one up close to where we were, but it was empty and my sister and I play -- played in it probably once. Okay. No, I mean probably somebody set it up, used it once or twice then left, so… that’s all I remember. Now what about - - you mentioned something about a barrel cleaning gold... Okay, my - - I evidently, some of the gold that he couldn’t pan or put through the sluice box… large rocks that might have clay o dirt on them…he put them in a barrel of water and -- I think the impression was like, cut off the barrel the barrel – maybe cut in half? (Male voice in background, inaudible) but I can remember seeing her sit there scrubbing those rocks with a… With the gold? A brush to get the gold and then he must have run what was left in that barrel through the sluice box to separate it, so… I can just remember when they were weighing gold, talking about a pennyweight and they would actually use a penny for a pennyweight and having - - when they had black sand in it, they had to use the mercury and I’m not sure if I’m remembering this right, but it seems to be me like they been – if they -- when they didn’t heat it and everything, that sometimes you could take a chamois skin and … you run the black sand would go through and the gold would stay behind it. PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 13 Oh, okay! So whether I just dreamed that up or you know, it really happened but… (Inaudible from husband) Yep, we still have his gold pan and we’ve been up here for two weeks, we’ve had four of the younger - - four grandchildren all pan for gold… Oh, neat! And the oldest of those, we were fortunate enough to meet somebody on the Ar - we were on the Arkansas River up in Leadville that knew exactly how you should do it you know, and he took him up and got him some foil and all that way off the bank, where I never would have thought of… and he – he got some gold... Got some gold? Got some gold. Oh, how exciting! And one of my – my youngest son-in-law got a - - found a little ?groupie? with gold on it you know, that was welded to it! Just like carrying on that gold history to the family! Well yeah, and then there’s the grandson that found gold, has my father’s name. Oh, neat. And now does your father pursue the gold mining after he -- after he left here? He – he did once…when we left here we went to Texas, back to Denver and then in Idaho, he and my - - his sister’s husband bought a gold claim on the Snake River and they brought the water up to the flume of the big water wheel and there was gold there, but it was such fine gold and so much black sand…that would have been 1940 , ’41…and they couldn’t recover it you know, just like now, it would not be worthwhile, so he got a job on the railroad and then …when World War II started, they built a military highway through there and he went back to driving a truck and he was … fifty-six? Something like that…about fifty-six. And he drove sixteen hours a day that truck you know, hauling materials to build the road. Do you know what caused your family to leave this area? No…I don’t. Whether … he - - we did go to his sister’s in Texas and whether they were telling him that he could get a job there or whatever, I – I don’t know. But he – he never did really get a job there. We stayed there for awhile and my mother did laundry, my aunt owned a hotel and she - - I remember wash - - her washing sheets and I lived with six other girl cousins and … it was ... So now we’re pushing into depression time, aren’t we? So that maybe that was part of it. Mm-hmm. That might have been it and she - - I remember when school was out, we went to a place called Smith’s Point that was a fishing camp and I never ate so many fish! (laughter) That was in Texas? Texas… on Galveston Bay. I used to love the oysters! I’d jump in and get oysters and open them up and just swallow them. I was about six and when - - I guess PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 14 when nothing was happening there for him, my mother wrote her mother in Denver for money. But she - - they must have been desperate because she never would have. My …my grandmother never approved of my father because he was so much older than my mother and she sent her $12 and we came across the whole state of Texas up to Denver on $12. We bought watermelon, we had fried eggs and fried sweet potatoes and slept beside the road. Just like a lot of other people were doing. And then you came back to Denver and did you live with a grandmother? No, we didn’t. We – we had an apartment and everything. My dad must have gotten his job right back because he’d been - - he worked for … can’t remember. It was an Italian firm in driving coal and stuff like that and I remember he worked for a sand and gravel company because he used to take the only truck with him and… evidently nothing was happening there either and then a friend of ours… (Inaudible from sister or daughter) He just moved in Denver. He had moved to California and he was a carpenter at Paramount studios so my dad started work as a carpenter at Paramount Studios building sets and miniature sets and … Do you remember any famous people then? He worked with - with Cecil B. DeMille, worked for him building sets and they had to go for the Ten Commandments, that movie – they had to go to the desert for location and he brought back -- they had some certain kind of pigeon or something from Egypt and he brought back some of the feed that they gave them, a different kind of corn than you see here. But he worked there until he retired and then he and mom moved back to Palisade, Colorado and … she passed away when she was 54, which was really hard for him because being the you know, so much older, he would have never have thought that she would go before he did. She would go first. So I think he was back here a couple of years and then he came to California with – with us for six years. Here we go. Okay, I put it on pause for a moment. So, we were just talking about one of the things we might have forgotten and that your father retired… He had retired quite a bit before that, but when Mother died, he seemed - - he stayed in – in that house in Palisade for a year or two, I’m not sure how long, then he came to California the last six years of his life and we were discussing last night whether he was 84 or 85 … when he died but… Now we’ve talked about your folks; we kind of skipped your own family and when did you get married and how did you meet? Okay, well, I met my husband when he was playing rubber guns in the back yard with my cousin (laughter) I was - - how romantic! I was 14 …and if you don’t know what a rubber gun is, they used to carve out a wooden gun and they used those inner tubes to make rubber - - big rubber bands. You know what an inner tube is, it came out of a tire. (laughter) I know what an inner tube is – I know that part! And they had cannons and they - - huge cannons and I’m saying with my arm -- my hands like (gesturing) five feet long and they’d tie several of those rubber bands together and they were having war (inaudible, other female) jumping on those post PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 15 holes in the back yard that we had set out there to clean or something. And that was the first time I saw him, he lived about a block away so I was a sophomore in high school and … And this is in - what town are you in now? This is in Hawthorne, California. Okay. And he was a junior and … we started going together and never quit I guess… and when I graduated from high school - - he graduated a year before me and we were engaged about eight months I think and … I graduated one week from high school and I think it was the next week my sister got married, the next week - - my sister was four years older than I; she got married June 19th, 1949 and the week after that, I got married. Oh my goodness. June 26, 1949. You really put your folks through some of this. NB Yes. Well, we did -- we did things in a simpler way then. The guys didn’t all wear tuxedos you know, we all had our gowns and everything, but they wore a dark suit and everybody got together and did the food for the reception and it wasn’t - they weren’t huge weddings but it worked; we’ve been married fifty-three years! Wow. (Inaudible male voice in background) For something special… ?___? was married. My middle daughter, she married before the older daughter, she was eighteen also when she got married. And she wore my gown. Oh! And how many children do you have? I have three girls; Denise, Noralene named after me, and Jackie Lynn because I had a little sister that died when she was an infant, eight months old, and her name was Jacquelene and so named Jackie, Jackie Lynn because we said if we named her Jacquelyn, everybody’s going to call her Jackie anyways, so we got two names. And then our younger daughter is Rebecca Lee and the other … (Male voice in background, inaudible). Yeah, that’s it. Six grandchildren? Oh, we have six grandchildren. Jackie has a 24 year-old girl who’ll be graduating from college this year and up until she’s graduated, she wanted to be a teacher but now she’s changing her mind and nine - - Jackie has a nine - - twenty-year old who turned twenty August 2nd, a boy named Michael and Denise has a boy named after my dad and her dad, Jesse David Katzenberger (laughter) and Jackie married a guy named Michael Venturelli and I’ve always said I can’t believe those girls gave – gave up their - - a nice name like Belcher for Venturelli and Katzenberger! And Rebecca married a guy named John Stuart and I’ve always said with her name, she sounds like she belongs in a gothic novel and - - but she should - - when she was expecting, I said, “You should name your baby (she’s a girl) Rosemary,” because Rosemary – it’s S-t-u-a-r-t which is even - - that’s a lot more romantic than the other way and PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 16 she named her Mary Rose and she’d giggle every time I’d say Rosemary because she was keeping this a secret from me. She thought she was naming her after my mother. She thought Rose was my mother’s name but Rose was my sister’s name so it was the plot that counted and then she has the three kids; she has Mary Rose Stuart, Thomas John Stuart and Jack Henry Stuart. Good plain names. (Female voice in background, inaudible) Which one’s that? (Female voice in background) Well, Annette I think you left out. Oh, did I leave Annette’s name out? Well, it’s Annette Marie Venturelli and her mother named her that because she said we could never give her a nickname, which we’re kind of bad with. But we called – but we started calling her Nettie and she still answers to “Nettie Spaghetti.” (laughter) so… You can find a nickname anywhere! Is there anything you want to add that we – we’ve missed? (Male voice in the background, inaudible) Probably more than she needs! (Laughter) (Male voice in background, inaudible) Lots of names to keep track of! There were so many, but that’s great! And I think as we close, that we’ll – you’ll probably have lots more memories come back, so you can ?_____? I – I might have. You never can tell. We did – we – we came here to Colorado, I was going to tell you, because the - - Michael Venturelli said someday he’d like to come to Colorado with us and see all the places we lived. And so I said, “Okay, we’ll do that someday, we’ll go and we’ll take the whole family.” So he said, on my - was it Mother’s Day or something, he said, “For your birthday why don’t we all go to Colorado. You plan it!” So I did (laughter). I – I rented a trailer and everything, turned out that Mike Venturelli and Jackie are the only - - and their family are the only ?_______? that couldn’t come, but Denise and my husband David and I went to Denver yesterday and saw where I lived on 21st and Curtis, where I lived at 2225 Glenarm, all of these houses …are not there anymore The school that I went to is still there. What school is that? Ebert. Ebert School on Glenarm Street. Okay. And it’s still a beautiful school! I‘ve always thought that was the best school I ever went to because it had a for really ? _______? library, it had a real auditorium, you know, with the stage and the curtains and the whole thing, but … there - - most of those houses now are downtown Denver and it’s downtown skyscrapers you’re looking out. I’ve seen some of those. (Male voice in background) : It looks like ?_? schools there. Uh –oh. I did ? _____? here. PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 17 Male voice: No, the one - - the one… Oh, well, I’d go home and fix my own lunch because my mother was working , now this is when I was seven or eight, and I would put the soup in the pan and I had to strike a match to light the gas and everything, and I’d eat lunch and then I - - we had these little Dick Tracy books, the little square ones, you know? Uh –huh. And I’d sit down and start reading … and I’d never hear the school bell (laughter) and I just wouldn’t go back to school! And I don’t know if that happened more than once or maybe just once and I remember it, but my kids were always saying, “You lit a match?” Mm-hmm. You lit the gas? (laughter) At that age, it’s hard to imagine a child going home alone. Not only that, I – I must have been just wandering the city because I can remember going to the Federal Courthouse, which is a couple of blocks away and I can’t remember anybody being with me! But I can remember the big seal over one of the courtrooms and the marble and went to a … rally at the - - what would you call that, Denise? Down at the end of the Capitol. That was within walking distance, too. But I was either going for a rally when Roosevelt was running for his - - probably his third term? Against Wilkie I think it was and we had - - it was a colonnade that the - you know, there. Sort of a Roman colonnade so we did have you know, a good life. Do you want me to tell you some – some of the things about ?___? The juicy stuff? Well, we went to downtown Denver to go the movies and mom would give us a quarter. We’d go to the movies for a dime, we would see two movies; “A March of Time,” which was news and so on; a “short” they used to call them and those talking animals were famous; a cartoon…and then across the street from the theater there was a place called the “Grass Shack.” The front was open and it had false grass, imitation grass, on the walls and for the fifteen cents we could get a hot dog, a little pan of beans and a frosted malted. But when she’d send me to the store with a quarter, I could get a quart of milk …the newspaper, what else? (Male voice in background, inaudible). A loaf of bread… and have two cents left over for candy. The Denver Post was only three cents, so we’d get all that. And I – I should say too, that when we were up at the Matchless Mine and Baby Doe’s cabin is papered with a newspaper from 1933, that we saw a washing machine advertised for $44. So that was one of the things… You have an idea of what Mom paid then. Yeah, uh-huh. (Male voice in background, inaudible). About the same. (Female voice in background: Was there an article about the fire?) There was an article about the fire here in Alma. Well, it had to be later than that. No…Well, it had - - all four walls were plastered, but it was probably 1937 PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO 18 newspaper, too. And it interested me that there had been a bombing in one of the theaters in Denver. Really! Because I didn’t think those things happened back then and I think the Lindbergh child and of them had been kidnapped so… (Male voice in background, inaudible). Laughter. Even when you were ?_____? I understand, I understand. I’m – I always say I’m a bookoholic because if I start reading a book, I can’t put it down and then I’m… well, not so much since we have TV and everything anymore … I really, really would get where I needed to read and I’d read things on cans or the stereo boxes you know, just normally. Now did - - we didn’t say, did you work outside the home as well? No, I didn’t… (Female voice in background, inaudible) ?____? Then I was raised… Taking care of the kids. Girl Scout leader. I organized Girl Scout troops, I registered Girl Scout troops. I think I have about twenty-five years in there between the girls and then I worked at it after the girls were all out. (Male voice in background inaudible). Well, I was going to tell that, too. When our youngest one was nine, we bought a broasted chicken place from his uncle where they made broasted chicken and I ran that business for ten years… (Male voice in background inaudible) And we - - and it would increase so much from time to time, that we knew we’d either have to get a bigger place and more people to work or we’d have to let it drop off. Uh-huh. ‘Cause if you can’t serve people - - I don’t know if you’re familiar with broasted chicken - it’s not cooked. We never cooked it until it was ordered and so, you know, with that time element in there we never held any hot or anything. And what did you do? (Male voice in background) I worked for Northrop for thirty ?_________? Northrop? Male voice: Its’s a ?__? (Answer is inaudible) Okay. Anybody want to add anything else before we close? I can’t think of anything. PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES �GLADYS NORALENE BELCHER, ALMA, COLORADO Just thank you so much for spending time with us today. Well, thank you – you’ve been so patient! And feel free to add more through the e-mail or anything else you have. I will! End of tape PARK COUNTY LOCAL HISTORY ARCHIVES 19 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound IIIF Collection Metadata UUID 5c855902-aef6-4cbb-bc61-7406bfa5e0aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Noralene Belcher, August 12, 2002 Subject The topic of the resource Families – History; Gold mines and mining -- Colorado; Rural schools Description An account of the resource Interview with Noralene Belcher with many details about growing up in the 1930s, Alma, Co., and her father's experience gold panning. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Cara Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audiotapes; Oral history interview recorded on audio tape; The interview consists of one audio-cassette with recordings on both sides of the tape. The digitized interview consist of two files. A transcript accompanies the recording. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2002-8-12 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Belcher, Noralene Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/ Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context oh_Belcher_N_001a; oh_Belcher_N_001b Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state); Park (county); Alma (inhabited place) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection IIIF Item Metadata UUID fae2aab5-1a12-484e-bcbe-e35a121075db https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/7266c9b91324ea639982cd5d47c5c22c.mp3 d7cc0b693e0c011ad1400a59aaf3bdc4 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/ecdf83542f367f1dad47a90bb45d99fd.mp3 c9c2423ed6c4b9d2eb145b0d347f1e4a https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/f98a3643659e6cb8c82ccdf0f60349aa.mp3 e33eca4f2b633d7a9131167b01a7e292 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/166b92698c8d5687253e413f5d42b6e3.mp3 72aa3c36b088b488c4291462872722c9 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/ecd5e9e70b08d1340f7a2d8a578b9e51.mp3 42129dcf83bb4b78312106ee709fc235 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/c8f1181b6d4dcce78b74f75a322628e9.mp3 1bbda1bef9551cb8f27c229e134f4e5f https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/6eb3cd2c32713d66f4824a806b165969.pdf 938405978fab10efe0941d9b0e926a57 PDF Text Text INTERVIEW BY CARA DOYLE DATED 11/29/2003 CD – CARA DOYLE MC – MARIE CHISHOLM Transcribed by Linda Carr 7/2004 This is Cara Doyle. It’s November 24, 2003 and I’m sitting here chatting with Marie Chisholm….. < missing dialogue > Grady, New Mexico is a little farming community. It is not incorporated. < missing dialogue > We lived 10 miles from Grady. Was your family farming there? My grandparents were farmers there. They homesteaded the property. In the ‘20’s I think…or even before the ‘20’s I think. But I started school in the first grade <missing dialogue> and she taught generations of children in that area. And I think you’re always impressed by your first teacher. At least I was because she just was a very good teacher. And Grady also had a very small school at the time and we were bussed to the school by little yellow school busses. And often the driver was not an adult but a teenager who went to the school. It was pretty small at the time, but we had quite a basketball team and also a national rodeo champion was born and raised in Grady. I can’t think what his name was. It will come to you. It will probably come to me. Can you characterize the area? Was it a poor area? Did people do pretty well at that time when you were living there? No, this was back in 1934…it was during the depression area. The farmers around there raised just about everything that they ate. My grandmother raised chickens. They raised cattle. They butchered a steer once in a while and pigs. And she canned chickens and they made ham and bacon. Raised vegetables in the garden. Anything that she could she canned. We had a basement just full of canned goods. About only thing they bought at the grocery store was things like sugar, baking powder. My grandmother even made her own yeast and her own soap. So did you learn all these things? Did you learn these skills from her? Not really. She wanted to teach me how to cook when I was 10 years old. And she was one of those who would put a handful of this and a pinch of that into something. And I would say, “How much?” And she would say, “Well, whatever you think’s right!” �Well a 10-year old doesn’t really know what’s right. Your hands are different… <laughter> Well I just didn’t…you know…and I kind of gave up. I didn’t even want to tackle something like that when I didn’t have a clue how much you put in something. So were you expected to do farm chores? I was kind of the baby of the family. And my brother and my uncle were…actually my brother was older than my uncle. But, they were teenagers and did most of the farm chores such as milking the cows. But I did get one job of gathering the eggs. But if there was a sitting hen…back in those days you hatched chickens. If you had a rooster then the hens would lay eggs and sit on them. And they were mean and they would peck me. So I would go screaming to Grandma and say “That chicken and that hen pecked me.” <laughter> That was scary for a little kid. I was…I didn’t like that. One time we had a heavy rainstorm and it’s pretty flat country. So there was not much place for the rain to go. There was a foot of water around the farmhouse and in the barns and everything. And the men had gone to Clovis New Mexico for some reason. Clovis was 45 miles away. And they couldn’t get home because everything was flooded. So my Grandmother wanted me to go out and milk the cow. Well, I was about 10 years old at the time. She said “of course if you can’t do it just let the calves have the milk.” Well I think those were the best fed calves because I came in with a little bitty dab of milk in the bucket. <laughter> I never had the strength in my hands, I guess, or the technique to milk a cow. But I did feed the chickens and I watered the chickens. Mostly, I think I played. Who all was living in this house? My Grandmother and my Grandfather and at the time my aunt Vila and uncle Roy and Uncle Harold and my brother. Harold and Roy were the sons of my grandparents and Vila was also the daughter of my grandparents. She was older and left home earlier and so finally it came down to just me and my brother and my uncle living there. And grandparents had a 3-bedroom house. Cozy sometimes then, huh? And I didn’t realize well the boys all slept in one bedroom and the girls in another and my grandparents had another bedroom. But I didn’t realize until I went back as an adult how small that house was. Because when I was a little kid I thought that was the biggest house in the world and they had a full basement which they stored wheat in a lot of times for seed for the next planting. And it was also full of food, canned food, flour was kept. They got their own flour milled from the wheat they raised. And cereal consisted of cracked wheat which I think it’s called bulgar now or something similar to that. Of course at that time it was just cereal to us. And my Grandmother cooked it and Cream of Wheat was made and she made her own lard, rendered �from the pigs. And it was stored in 5 gallon containers in the basement…the old ceramic crocks with the ceramic lid on it. It’s going to get noisy. If you hear noise in the background…they’re fixing the library. And I remember the basement particularly because I liked to play down there. But I also wandered all around the farm and paid attention to everything. If I saw a snake I got screaming to Grandma to get the snake. Of course we did have rattle snakes but we also had Bull snakes but I couldn’t tell the difference. They scare me now <laughter>. So this was now Central New Mexico. No this was Eastern New Mexico. It’s probably about 20 miles west of the Texas line. It’s not very far from Texas. Amarillo from Tucumcary is about 115 miles. And most of that mileage is in the Texas side. And so we were quite close to Texas and apparently communication was by radio. We had a little radio…if you can picture this….on Saturday night everybody gathered around the radio to listen to the Grand Ole Opry…Minnie Pearl and Earnest Tubbs and all those people. And my grandparents always listened to the radio for weather forecasts. It was dryland farming and they were always interested in whether or not we were going to get moisture. And quite often crops failed because they didn’t have moisture. And sometimes if they did have a good crop a hailstorm would come along and ruin it. So it was tough times. It sounds like it. But it sounds like you had enough to eat. We had plenty to eat. We had eggs. We had bacon. We had all kinds of meat. And of course we were raised on eggs, bacon, gravy and biscuits…mainly. But we had chicken and steak for main meals, lunch or dinner. What about clothes and shoes . My grandmother used to buy flour at the mercantile store…Stanfields..in 100 pound sacks, if we bought flour. Because sometimes we didn’t have a wheat crop even to make flour. So she bought flour and flour was at that time as a sales promotion bagged in printed material. And so she would buy 2 or 3 bags, which would give her 2 or 3 yards of material to make dresses, aprons and clothes for me. And things like that. And the men had to buy coveralls and shoes. And of course I went barefooted almost until I started first grade and then I had to have shoes to go to school. And is that what most kids wore…was it embarrassing. Did everybody just have that anyway? Everyone was just just like <noise from library> uniforms for schools nowadays. Nobody paid any attention to what kids wore because everybody wore pretty much the same thing. And the boys usually wore jeans or bib overalls. And when I was a little girl, before I started to school, my grandmother used to put coveralls on me…the old fashioned striped ones. And she kept my hair �cut short. She did all the haircutting. My grandfather half-soled shoes. He had all the equipment and everything. If the soles of your shoes went bad, he put half soles on them. We didn’t even know about the shoe shoes unless they were in the cities like Clovis or Tucumcary, NM. And he would half-sole the shoes until the sides got so bad they had to be thrown away. You couldn’t half-sole them because they wouldn’t hold the sole anymore. But the men of course had to buy their own shoes. And I did too. They had to buy shoes for me when I was starting to school. But most of my clothes were just made by flour sacks and things like that, except the coveralls. And because my grandmother kept my hair cut short before I started to school. A lot of people thought I was a little boy. <laughter> We had two dogs. One dog in particular, a collie, and the collie’s name was Ted. And that dog lived for many, many years. I don’t know how old that dog was, but I do remember it was there when I was in first grade and he was an almost constant companion to me when I was there growing up on the farm. And Ted then moved with my grandparents to Bolin New Mexico. They sold out the farm in Eastern New Mexico and moved to Bolin, which is sough of Albuquerque. They took the dog with them and they raised alfalfa when they were there. And the dog died there…had one leg cut off by bye mower when they were mowing for alfalfa. But that was after I came to Fairplay. So that dog was pretty old at the time. He just died a natural death because he learned to hop on just one front leg and two hind legs. You mentioned that you did a lot of playing as a kid. What did you do for fun out there. It sounded kind of lonely. No. It wasn’t lonely. I’m not sure…we had the kids…my brother and uncle made their own toys. I guess you’d say. They made…I’m not sure what you would call them…but they would take a can that was closed on both ends and flatten them in the middle on your shoes and you would walk on them. And that was kind of fun walking. And they made stilts…they made their own stilts. I never could master walking on stilts. I just could never get the hang of keeping my balance. And they made them out of a slab of wood with leather foot straps and that was it pretty much. Of course they were tall enough they could hold them to their sides with their hands, you know, hold the wood. But I could never get the hang of walking on stilts. <laughter> And they used to tease me a lot. They would tease me that the bear was going to get me. If we were playing outside…playing Red Rover, you know…and it got dark…well then they would say “the bear’s going to get you”….never realizing there was no such thing as a bear out there in that flat land. In fact we never saw antelope or…we never had no wild animals at all except jack rabbits and cotton tails and snakes that I recall. Of course we had gophers and prairie dogs. Wherevever there’s a colony of prairie dogs you have rattle snakes, because that’s the food for rattle snakes. But we never had near the house or anything we never had prairie dogs. It was mostly in the dry pastureland. And we didn’t have any of that hardly. I used to fish tarantulas out of their holes. That was one of my prized times. You take a lot of chewing gum and put it on a cotton string..a little redwood twine. And you jig it up and down in the spider hole. And they’ll latch onto it, and then you pull them out. And some of them were probably 2 or 3 inches across and fuzzy but we never tried to hold them or anything. We were always taught that they were poisonous. But they were never fast enough to get us. But if you teased them, they would put up a fight. They would stand up on their hind legs and attack like a piece of straw or whatever. And that’s how come you could fish them out of the hole in the first place. <laughter> �Whoa <laughter> One time we had a bed bug infestation. Back in those days it was kind of a…it showed poor sanitation. It was a negative effect. My cousins from a couple of miles away had come to stay and had brought bed bugs into the house. When my grandmother discovered it she just had a fit. So everything went out into the yard. And at that time of course we didn’t have any way of killing bed bugs and getting rid of them. But the mattresses, which were feather beds, went out into the yard and were strung along the fence or the clothes line or something. All the bedding was washed. And of course they crawl into the crevasses and hide in the daytime. So her method of getting rid of them behind the baseboards in the house was to pour boiling water behind the baseboards and then mop it up as it flowed out. But she did get rid of the bed bugs. She sounds like a really amazing lady. She was. And I think back and I think how did she handle all that? She had to cook. She had to wash and keep house and all that sort of stuff…and can. She made her own soap which was done in the yard with wood. She heated this great big kettle in the yard. She used lard of course from the pigs and lye. That was one thing she had to buy was lye. And she made her own soap in this big kettle. And when it would cool she would cut it into chunks. But she had this long wooden…it was almost like an oar…but it was a paddle that she stirred the soap while it was getting hot and making. We didn’t have electricity until 1938 or 39…somewhere along there. So the way she washed…we had this what they called a wash house…it was a little adobe building outside of the house across the yard that we had a gas-operated engine that ran the washing machine. The hose for the exhaust went outside the adobe wall. It had a …because they knew about carbon monoxide at the time, and so the exhaust went outside. But it was an old fashioned washing machine with a wringer. And my grandmother always cautioned me “Now don’t you let your fingers get in that wringer.” And of course it had an emergency release. I used to toy with the idea, should I try it??? And I never did. <laughter> Smart girl <laughter> But clothes were run through the wringer out of the washer into a wash tub where you had water. And all of the water had to be carried to the wash house, or into the house for use from the windmill. They had a windmill with a storage tank. And everything had to be carried in…the water had to be carried into the house because we had no real plumbing. We had a bathtub and a toilet that flushed but we didn’t have any hot water. So any hot water had to be heated outside in the big black kettle and carried into the house for the bathtub. <laughter> But they did have what they call the cooler, which was a concrete pan, I guess you would call it, above the stairway for the basement, only it was on the back porch. Water would flow through that. And that’s where they stored milk to cool it. And they separated their own milk with one of those hand-crank separators. That was another one of my jobs…separating the milk. And then she sold the cream or made butter with it, and eggs to help bring in some income to buy shoes, baking soda, sugar. And we would get oranges once a year. And they would buy a crate of �oranges just before Christmas, and that was the only oranges we had on the farm. However, they did raise apples and peaches on the farm. And she canned apples and peaches and that was our…and that was our first group that we had. And I am amazed that my grandmother could do all that. And kill their own chickens and process them. Even today when my family started hunting birds in the high country…grouse and ptarmigan…they didn’t know how to gut a chicken…or the bird…and I had to show them because of my experience with chickens. My grandfather did a lot of ironwork. He had a forge in the shop, with a blower on it. That was also my job…to turn the crank of the blower. He would heat metal and form it into whatever shape he needed to fix the tractor or plow or whatever. We did not have horses at the time. We did have tractors that had the big lugs on them. And then somewhere along the line we got a John Deere. They used it for their wheat farming to pull the plow and plant wheat. That was in the late ‘30’s or somewhere along there. And so they were always proud of any mechanical help that they got for the farm. But they didn’t have any money. I don’t know how they managed. I can remember my grandfather going over figures and everything at night and worrying about how they were going to manage. However the property was free and clear except for the taxes. And they still had to pay taxes on it. And it was a struggle, I know. Especially to raise extra kids in the family. Now you haven’t talked about your mom and dad at all. Well my father died when I was 2. We were living in Grady at the time. And it was an accidental death. I really don’t have any details about it. I did get a hint or two but it is something I would prefer not to reveal. And my mother had four children at the time at home. I was 2 and my oldest sister was 9 years older than I was. My mother had only an 8th grade education. Women could not work…find any kind of work at that time. So this is when we started being farmed out to relatives to raise. I don’t know what my mother did during the time I was with my grandparents. It was just something that was never discussed. I just know that she never could ever make a living for herself and her children. I know one time we were living out in the desertland…southwest of Albuquerque…when I was in the 2nd grade. We lived in an adobe house that had dirt floors and centipedes and rattle snakes. We were on what they called welfare. We got pinto beans. We got rice. We got mostly dried products. And we lived on that, I remember. And I went to school in the 2nd grade in this little adobe school house. It was grades 1-6. But there were hardly any kids. And I had to walk a mile to school. But the weather was not any problem in Albuquerque, because it hardly ever got bad. However we did get some apples one time and they cautioned everyone to wash apples thoroughly because they had sprayed them with an insecticide or something to kill the bugs or whatever. I didn’t wash this apple good and I got disentary they called it. I almost died from that. I was dehydrated and weak and delirious. And finally a health nurse came and said “Give her rice water…cook rice and give her the water.” So that is what kind of brought me around. But I almost died from that. We had no medical attention ever. When I was in the first grade I got the measles and the mumps and then I got pneumonia. I always loved to go to school. But this one morning I didn’t want to go to school. I didn’t feel good. I had a temperature of 105. So my grandmother said “Papa, you’ve gotta go get Doc Hale.” So he went and got him and he came out to the house and diagnosed it as double-pneumonia. I recall them putting pink salve on a cloth and putting it on my back and my chest. And you didn’t know what it was? �I didn’t know what it was. It had a menthol odor to it, but I had no clue what it was. But it cured me of pneumonia. I’ve heard of some people using mustard plaster, but this was not a mustard plaster. I don’t know long it took me to recover, but I suppose I recovered pretty fast being a young kid. And that was my most serious illness back in those days besides the dysentery. If we didn’t have home medicine cures, I don’t know. We didn’t go to a doctor, hardly ever. My grandfather got his arm broken when he was trying to crank the old car. You had to crank them. It kicked back, they called it. And he had to go to Doc Hale and get that set. And we hardly ever took a car anywhere. Maybe once or twice a year would we even drive the car. We had rural delivery and the mailbox was a mile away from the house. So somebody walked to get the mail unless they were expecting a big supply of some kind of feed or something. Then somebody would go meet the mailman. We even got chickens by mail. Oh really <chuckle>. Yeah, they were in a big cardboard box and they had about ½ inch holes. And these chickens would come by mail. And these chickens would just chirp and chirp. And so we would meet the mailman every day. We would have kind of an idea of when the chickens would arrive, so we would meet the mailman every day because we had no other communication other than just going to meet. And so we met the mailman until the chickens arrived, which was usually in the spring of the year. That’s when we would get a shipment of like 100 to 200 chickens. And then these were fryers that she would kill and can for our food. The others, the older chickens, were kept for just laying eggs. <laughter> They were called layers. And we had white chickens. Some people had brown chickens. But we always had white chickens. So during this time did your Mom come to visit here and there? No. I remember before I ever started to school, my mother was there and she had had a hysterectomy. OK. We were talking about your Mom. So they brought her home in the ambulance. Back in those days surgery was a very serious thing and they brought her home not knowing the results of removing ovaries back in those days. She had a nervous breakdown. And she was in a mental institution for over a year. But no one really understood that the sudden removal of the hormones would do this to you. They didn’t have artificial hormones at the time. I remember visiting her during that time which was probably once every six months…I don’t know. What was that like? I would imagine it was very scary. It was scary. It was very scary. Because none of us knew, you know, what was going on or how to deal with it. She just went off her rocker. I don’t know how they handled it. Well I know that my grandfather handled the situation. He put her in the car and took her somewhere. But where he took her, I don’t know. But maybe to the doctor. Maybe he recommended this…I have no �idea. But it was bad. She recovered but I still did not live with her. And I still don’t know much too much about what happened to her afterwards. When did the transition happen, because my understanding is that you ended up coming out to Colorado with your mom? I was living with my grandparents in New Mexico at the time and had been there most part of the…well all of the 7th grade. The 3rd-6th I was all over. My mother tried to keep me with her and it didn’t always work. She couldn’t make a living and have me. And my brother was always with my grandparents. So you would end up going with your mom for a little bit to some other town and then head back to your grandparents house? Yeah. And so I changed schools twice in any year at least. She had some jobs managing or taking care of a hotel or motel or something like that. And then she would take in boarders. People that could pay to live at the house and she would prepare meals for them and stuff like that. That was one of her ways of making money. But I was living with my grandparents. I had been with them from the time I got out of the 6th grade until I finished the 7th grade. And then this was by August of 1944. My mother met and married Everett Howard. She was working as a waitress in Denver. She came up to be a housekeeper. She wound up getting married and my mother wanted me live with them. So I came up here on August 14, 1944. And that’s when you first came to Fairplay? That’s when I first came to Fairplay. We came from Tucumcary. We went to Tucumcary…this Aunt Nancy and I. I was 13. She escorted me. She kind of knew the ways of transportation and things like that. Now who is Aunt Nancy? How does she tie in? Is she your mom’s sister? That’s my mother’s younger sister. However she is now 96 years old. My Aunt Nancy is and she’s still living in Tucumcary. Anyway we decided that the way to get to Colo was by train. This was during the war. You could not drive very much because gas was rationed and nobody had cars to drive that far anyway. So we went to…we were taken to Tucumcary by my grandparents. We went through Dalhart, Texas and somewhere to around Pueblo and then to Denver. Cary: What was that like as a kid on a train? I’ll bet it was exciting! It was very hot and dirty. It was a diesel engine and no air conditioning. And being August it was very hot through those areas…New Mexico, Texas and Colorado were all very hot during that time. You had to have the windows open and as a result you got soot and smoke from the diesel engines. �So was it miserable or was it exciting? It was an experience. That’s for sure <chuckle>. I didn’t really want to leave my grandparents, though. But my aunt came and my mother and step father met us at Union Station and brought us to Fairplay. We topped Kenosha Pass in the afternoon. And what were you driving? It was his car. I’m not sure. It was a ‘38 or ‘40 car. Of course there were no cars manufactured after 1941 and so this was an older car, but I don’t remember the year or the brand. That wasn’t an interest to me. But at that time all of South Park was irrigated. So you topped Kenosha Pass. …Topped Kenosha Pass and I just …and the mountains and the meadows down below…I was just absolutely astounded. So my aunt stayed a few days and then she went back to NM to my grandparents house, I guess. She was kind of in a transition between jobs…I don’t know. She always made her living by waiting tables or something like that or cooking in a restaurant. So for some reason she wound up at my grandparents at that time I guess on vacation or something…just for visit. Anyway she went back there. And I stayed here…I’ve been here ever since. But I lived with my mother and step father until the spring of 1945. So you came in the summer of ’44 it was? Uh-huh. And I left home in the spring of ’45. Tell me where did you live when you first got here? Here you are with a strange guy. Wasn’t that weird to have a step-dad. Did you know him at all? I wanted a father figure. I had never had a father. My mother married several times. This is one thing she did…she would rely on men for support so she would marry somebody and that wouldn’t last. So anyway, Did you like him ever? What was he like? He was very domineering. He insisted that everything be in it’s place and be kept spic-and-span clean. I was, I guess I was a little rebellious, I don’t know <chuckle> …and I left home in the spring of the year. Our first house was on Second Street where the alley comes down to Third Street. That house right on the corner, 215 Second Street. And that’s when you first moved in with your mom and stepdad? �That was the first house, mm-hum. You had your own room? Sort of. It was a duplex that they had cut a doorway in from the front room and then you went from the front room, which was on the alley, and then you went to the next room, which would have been a front living room, had it not been…it was still a duplex. That was where my bedroom was. And then there was another bedroom in the back. I had two stepbrothers living there at the time. And did you get along with them? I got along with the stepbrothers. I did not get along with the stepfather. And he was kind of abusive to my mother. And I resented that and I wanted out. My mother would not leave because this was her support. Now was she working up here at the time? No she was not working. And what did he do? He was a miner and he was still working at the London Mine. He was taking out the railings and the infrastructure on the South London Mine. They were using the rails and all metals for the war effort because they melted it down and made cannons and whatever out of it for the steel. So he was working up there taking out the rails. So I was fortunate to go into the South London Mine. <cannot understand> down with him? Yes just before it was finally shut down for many years. Tell me what it was like. It was exciting. I got more of a thrill out of that than I did coming out on the train. You wore a hat that had a light on it, a hard hat. And of course no light in the tunnel except they had a motor that you went in on. I guess it was electric…I don’t know. I don’t remember any noise. It was very dark and the water was dripping all the way through. If we got to a spot where it was dripping pretty good he would slow down so we could get a little wet. <laughter> So was it a cart? �It was an ore cart. A motor and an ore cart. It had seating space on it for two people other than the driver. And my aunt and I went through there during that time. I kind of feel like I was fortunate to be able to see that mine before it was shut down and everything taken out. But back to my story of my stepfather. He made me mad. I had come home with some cleaning clothes from the cleaners and I paid for them myself. I was working doing housework at the time making 50 cents an hour. Where were you working? I was working for Sherry Burgess. She was the County Clerk and Recorder at that time. And her husband was in the Service. Anyway I paid for the cleaning with my own money. I was in a hurry. You know how school kids are. And I laid my cleaning on my bed instead of hanging it up. And when I came home later it was thrown out into the yard in the dirt because he was very fastidious about everything being in it’s place all the time. Also I did not appreciate the fact that he was abusive to my mother and she would not leave. So I left. And there was a family by the name of the Lanses. They lived out here on the Red Hill Ranch which is on the other side of the Red Hill which has since burned down. But I went and lived with them. How did you meet these people…to clean for…to live with. Did you go with them to school? I mean you’re just a kid… Some of that just escapes my memory. My mother had me helping her when she was cleaning houses. She later did begin to work cleaning houses. She cleaned the house down at the Silverheels Ranch…the ranch house out there. And then she worked doing cooking for the hay crews that summer. But I just you know things just happened. So it was Velaska family? Yes. They were sheep-raisers. They raised sheep. And they were from Craig. Their name was Valanzez. They seemed to have money. So I went to live with them until I got out of school for the summer. So what was the deal? Room and board for housework or ? They just took me in. I did work after school the next year but after school was out. I graduated from the 8th grade and then I went to my grandparents house in Bolin, New Mexico. I stayed with them all summer. I came back in my freshman year and I lived with the Hockaday family. My mother was supposed to pay them $5 a week for my room and board. Well I was still working. I worked for Sherry Burgess and I was working waiting tables and I was doing all sorts of things. When I found out my mother hadn’t sent them a dime, I started paying my own room and board to the Hockaday family. Bonnie Wilcox is their daughter. Probably Bonnie and Wilcox doesn’t ring a bell with anyone here. He was also a miner and he worked at the Buckskin Mine I believe. Anyway this $5 a week helped them considerably. Then I bought my own clothes. I paid my own expenses at school and everything. Except for a place to live I was pretty well self-supportive. �Were they family at all to you? I mean do they feel like family or were you just renting space? It was like family. Everyone around town was family at the time. Everybody knew everybody. They knew their business and it was …Fairplay was like a big family. So you didn’t feel lonely or kind of lost not being with your family. No because other than my grandparents I had no family life. I mean I was shifted from one place to another. I had no father figure to feel protected or anything. I just became very independent. Boy you sure did. <laughter> Did you have any fun? Sounds like you’re working all the time in your teenage years… Yes we always had fun. As school kids we always had fun. We had the youth center, which is now the Senior Center, but we had every Friday night there were dances. We had an orchestra. We had square dancing or regular dancing. And then the other room was for ping pong and checkers and Chinese checkers and other kinds of games. Who rang this? Reverend Hillhouse. He was the Presbyterian minister here. He got the idea of putting together this youth center. The original part of the building was the Methodist Church, which was no longer active. He bought a part of a school building. I’ve had two different stories about where the rest of the building came from. But the part that sits right on the corner what is now the Senior Center…Hathaway and Sixth…was the original Methodist church. And then he added a school building popped toward the alley. And the kids…there was a section that was constructed from the ground up inbetween those two. And it was made the entrance. And then the kitchen was put into part of that church building and then part of the entryway. And the bathrooms were put in and things like that. But it was already finished by the time I got here. But the kids around town helped build that, you know. The teenagers he was very persuasive to get the teenagers to do all of this. And was there a religious affiliation? Could anyone come? Oh yeah. Anybody. The whole town. The kids and the parents would sponsor. They would prepare refreshments…cakes, pies or something. They served drinks, tea or cokes or something. And I think we paid a small amount for expenses, you know. And we had Edna Miller was one of the main people in the band and her husband, I know him as Shorty Miller. He played a horn of some kind. �What did Edna play? No I think Shorty…Oh Edna always played the piano. Oh yeah. Her husband played the drums. And then Reverend Hillhouse’s son later played a horn, sax I believe. No Cliff Richardson played the sax. And then later…I don’t remember what Larry Hillhouse played. Larry Hillhouse is still alive. He lives in Aurora. He has lots and lots of memories of Fairplay of course. It was…we had fun. We would go ice skating down by the river. We would build a bonfire and go ice skating down on the river. Sometimes we went skating down at the dredge pond. The dredge was still there and the ice was not functional. Is that the one south of Fairplay? South of Fairplay by Highway 9. We would go down there skating. And they had a watchman would would invite us in and go fix hot chocolate or something. Oh cool. Tell me what it was like to be inside the dredge. We just went into one section that was kind of an office room. It was just a metal room, you know. And a desk and some chairs around and the watchman had a place to cook. I don’t recall. It was just a wood-heated stove or something like that. It had to be, you know. To keep warm. You didn’t peek around the dredge at all? Not really. I think he did take us on a tour one time and the stacker…the big conveyor belt that dug the dirt and washed it and everything. And it stacked the rocks back out into rock piles. And he did show us where they rendered the gold and things like that. But I was not really impressed I guess because it was just a dirty old tin place I guess <laughter>. It is so famous around here. It was quite a novelty. After the dredge began to run again I was waiting tables at the Fairplay Hotel. And I recall some tourists came in for dinner. They said, “What is that night club out there?” I’ve heard there were lights out there. <laughter> It was all lit up and there’s a screaming and a hollerin’ going on out there. Of course it was the metal screeching you know from the stacker because it did run 24 hours a day. And I laughed and I explained what it was. And of course they had never heard of a dredge and things like that. But we did have…. In 1945 when the war ended we began having tourists come in and come back and the people who had left for the war effort started coming back. Most of them were discharged within 6 months after the war ended which was around December of 1945. People started coming back. Our dentist came back. That was Dr. Sinn. He had an office and a home over on Front Street which later owned by Wynona Briggs. Then Eunice Briggs owned it. And �now Widbrotz or it’s now known as Mama Moose. But that was the dentist office. He had two rooms in the front of the building with an entrance off Front Street. He was my first experience with the dentist. I’ve been afraid of dentists ever since. <laughter> Was he mean or was he… He was rough and I had a real bad situation. My two eye teeth were impacted. They never came through. And they were embedded in bone. My brother was in the Navy and the dentist said you’ve got to have these removed. They could become abscessed and then you’d be in real trouble. Well I didn’t know better at the time and so my brother said … I think the cost was $125. So my brother in the Navy sent me the money to have this dental work done. I went through a lot of pain during and after the surgery. It was oral surgery that…. And the last one he waited for the worst one for the last and then he made bridge work for me. And the whole thing cost $125. Other people though who had been his patients were very glad to have him back. How did he put you out? With novacaine shots. And the novacaine would wear off and he would have to give me more because the last surgery took an hour and 45 minutes. He was sweating over that. Anyway this was my first experience. Well actually I went to him first because I had a tooth break off. It had a little tiny pinhole of decay and it broke the tooth. And I went to him for a filling. First time I’d ever been to a dentist except when my mother did take me to a dentist in Albuquerque when I was 10 to see why I didn’t have these two teeth. The dentist said “oh she’s still young…they’ll come through.” And I think that they could tell that my mother never had any money <laughter>. I don’t know if that dentist in Albuquerque ever got paid, but I don’t think so. Anyway they didn’t want to take time with people that they didn’t think they could collect any money from. So everything was just dropped until I went to Dr. Sinn. I know that there were some high school boys parked on Front Street when I came out of the office. I must have looked like I’d been through a tornado. Naturally I didn’t feel very well and they started laughing. And I never forgave them for that <laughter>. Do you know who they were? Well one was my future husband who I didn’t know was going to be my future husband <laughter>. And I don’t remember who the rest of them were. I think one was Clair McCoy who came from Como to school here. He seemed to always have an old car. And my husband always seemed to have an old car…a Model A or a Model T or whatever they were at that time. Anyway I was pretty unhappy at them for laughing at me. <laughter> I don’t blame you. Poor thing. Now what friends did you hang out with. Who were your friends? Well Betty Jo Weaver was in my class. We did a lot of stuff together. And all of the girls belonged to the Girl Scouts. Mrs. Hillhouse was the Girl Scout leader. We would go on picnics and things. I don’t know…there was never any really close friendship. Mary Jacobs was a friend of mine when I came here. It’s hard to get in…if you know what I mean…get in with the kids when you’re new. �Sure. Well you moved so much. Maybe you were a little bit protected too. Well, I was very shy and it took at least a year to really make friends with anybody. But I always went to the youth center and participated in everything. We played basketball at school…after school sometimes. Now that’s one thing that struck me in talking with people is there seemed to be girls sports then…even more so than many years later. Would…. Volleyball and basketball were the sports mainly because they were indoors. The weather in Fairplay does not let you play outdoors too much except.ice skating and things like that. We never had a ski…none of us ever went skiing except just maybe on a little slope somewhere That’s funny because you hear so much about it now. mm-hum. Yeah. But tell me about girls basketball. I heard it got quite competitive between the towns. Well we did not play other schools. It was not allowed. Girls basketball. Now what time was this? In the ‘40’s then? Marie: Yeah. From the time I was a freshman, which was ’45 until I graduated in 1949. At first we played girls rules which you couldn’t cross the center line. You had to throw the ball from one…you had 5 players on each end…each team had 5 players. There were 10 players. And each team had 5…I don’t recall that you couldn’t dribble the basketball. You could drop it and run and grab it before it bounced a second time. And that was the way you moved down the court. And then you had to pass it over the line. Nobody was allowed to cross the center line except for jumping. You jumped in the center line for the ball and that was it. It was a lot different than boys basketball. But then in later years we used to play even the town team that the people that were already out of high school had a town team and the high school boys played the town team. But we cooked up… OK this is tape 2 with Marie and Cara. We were talking about basketball. You had cooked up some kind of a competition you were telling me. We wanted a little better competition than just high school boys, so we challenged the town team to games. We would beat them because they were afraid they would hurt us girls. And we were rough…I mean we did everything we could to get the ball. We’d run into them, knock them over and get the ball. And they quit playing because…they quit…they said “You girls are too rough.” Before the school was consolidated, before the war, we had Alma, we had Jefferson, and we had Fairplay, and we had Como…all schools in all those areas. They played each other. And then �there was Hartsel. And of course Lake George and Guffey and Taryall…they were all so isolated that they didn’t have… Hard to travel… Well they didn’t have facilities for even playing basketball. They didn’t have a gymnasium. They were just one-room schoolhouses. But in the Como/Jefferson area and in Alma they had the schools where they could play in the gym. They had basketball courts and things like that. So that’s how come they had competition then. Then when the war started everything was consolidated and they were bused to Fairplay because of the…well…there was just hardly any enough kids at each school I guess to justify… So many people had moved during the war they had to leave… Oh yeah…. And I guess it was too they didn’t have enough students to justify keeping all of those schools open. So there really wasn’t anyone to play nearby. I mean if you wanted to play another school it would have been a long, long way. Yeah. When I was in high school we went to Cotopaxi. We went to West Cliff. Those smaller schools. But we didn’t go that often. And this, I guess, continues to this day. That you play the smaller schools, and quite often it’s a long trip. But we didn’t have any way of going. The other students…only the ball kings were the ones that went. We had no way of going. We had no transportation. Once in a while one of the high schoolers would have a car and they would go with as many as they could take…which was a total of 6…5 others besides the driver. But most of us didn’t go. We didn’t go to those things. We had cheerleaders here but they didn’t go… They didn’t get to go either… They didn’t get to go either. Gas was rationed during the war. Tires were hard to get. Now how did it change from when the war started. What was Fairplay like before and then during the war. How did those transitions kind of affect the town? Well, I wasn’t here during the prewar era. But there were a lot more people here. And after war started, a lot of younger people went either into the service or went to build war equipment. So the town was pretty much deserted. A lot of the wives followed the husbands wherever they went. If they were in the Navy, they went to Washington state or wherever the Naval yards were. A lot of the houses were empty and boarded up. And that was when you first got here. �mm-hum. And our only source for shopping was Alscod’s Grocery store…over here on the corner…the rock store. He was very generous with the people. Sometimes he would sell you sugar and tires and gasoline and shoes were rationed. You were allowed 2 pairs of shoes a year, I think. And you got coupons to buy these things. You had to have a coupon before you could go buy it. And canned fruits and things like that were not readily available on the grocery store shelves because it required sugar. Factories did not have sugar. Sugar was imported. And so as a result we didn’t have…and leather went to soldiers’ boots. And so that’s why you couldn’t get shoes very often. Rubber went for the army vehicles and the military vehicles and the gasoline. Now how much did that impact you as a teenager here. Did you really notice that? We hardly got out of town. The furtherest we would go would be to Como or Alma. Como Mercantile was still in business and so in order to find supplies, a store would get sugar in, but it didn’t stay on the shelves for very long. So we would go to Como to see if they had sugar of coffee. Coffee was also rationed. Anything that was imported into the United States that we did not produce and was not necessary for the military, it was in pretty short supply. The dealers and the merchants didn’t…once they got these supplies in, they were gone pretty fast. I think the small towns benefited more than the cities, because the small towns had the allotments and not too many people to sell it to. And most of the governmental stuff was teaching and the draft board…we had a draft board. What did they call the office where you picked up your buttons for ration stuff….um…I can’t recall what they called it. It was usually the older people or the women that ran this. The county clerk…her office was all women. And the county judge…we did have a county judge…but it was women. Or either the young or the old besides. Because the inbetween women went with their husbands if they went to the factories or to the service. And so it had quite an impact. And gradually they began coming back and opening up their businesses again. Now you were at the Fairplay at this time? In ’46…’45…I waited tables at the Hand Hotel. Ok. Tell me about those places at that time. Were they hopping…were they luxurious…were they…? Well, they were just middle-of-the-road…the Fairplay Hotel has not changed all that much. They still have the wooden floors. And the Hand Hotel had a few rooms upstairs which were not anything special. They had no bathroom upstairs. Everyone had to…I don’t know what they did for a bath or a shower because they had no plumbing up there. And everyone had to come downstairs and use the bathroom. Later they expanded or remodeled and put these facilities in. Now they had a restaurant open… There was a restaurant. It’s now on the east side of the hotel lobby and it is where they have a gift shop there now. And the kitchen was still a kitchen. And the other part of the hotel…I’m trying to think…of course they added on back there in later years. I’m trying to think what was...where the entry-way for the kitchen is now because the entry-way into the restaurant was through doors coming in from where the gift shop is. �The biggest business that the hotels had was from the bus lines. We did have public transportation…the Greyhound and Trailways bus lines, which later went out of business because of lack of business. But the Trailways bus continued to come to Fairplay on a daily basis, and a lot of the passengers were customers of the hotels. So as a waitress, how much did you make? What were you paid hourly? Very little <laughter>. But I made good tips. Normally I made about $20 a week in tips. Now that was a big tip. Now how many days did you work to make $20? I worked probably 7 days a week. After school? After school and then during the weekends I worked a lot. But on the weekends I worked day shift or early morning shift and then during the school year I worked in the evening…besides all the other little odd jobs I had around. And so after the war ended I would make $20 a week in tips and that was big money. People were very generous. Tourists were very generous. And I don’t know if it was just me because I was just a little kid to them, and they’d give me extra. Or whether I was a good waitress. I don’t know. But I loved doing waitress work. Who did you work for at the Hand Hotel? Who was running it then? Junior Hand, who was the oldest of the Hands, and his wife Lottie. Actually Norman Jr., we called him Junior, and his wife Lottie were running the Hand Hotel. Was Grandma still around? Grandma was still around. She… Tell me about Grandma <laughter>. Well, Grandma would come to the hotel and she would have her fishing gear on. Her old hat and grungy…not grungy but grubby clothes…nothing spectacular. I mean just old pants and shirt. She would usually come in after fishing and she would have some coffee or visit. I heard she was quite a character. What was your impression? �Well, she was a pretty tough lady I guess you’d call it…or very strong-willed. She wanted things her way. She managed to get things her way most of the time, but I did some research in the Flume. She sued the man who was running, what used to be the bar which was next to the hotel. That building there used to be a bar and it was run by somebody by the name of Fitzsimmons. Anyway she sued him because the noise from the bar kept her patrons awake in the night…people who stayed at the hotel. I think she lost that one. Maybe she won that one…I don’t remember now <laughter>. But anyway, then the guy from the … then she decided … oh the guy from the bar blocked off the alley. There’s an alley next to the Fairplay…or the Hand Hotel…which is between her house and the hotel. There’s a platted alley there. So this man from the bar, in order to get even, he started parking across this alley in the street. So she took him to court, claiming that he was blocking her private property. The suppliers could not get into the alleyway there to deliver groceries, etc. And so, she claimed she owed the alley. She said she had paid the Town some fee…I think it was something like $125…to buy the alley from the Town. And the judge ruled against her. He said the Town did not have any right to sell her the alley…it was a public right-of-way. So she lost that one. <laughter>. And I thought it was pretty amusing. But this was kind of the way things went between some people who were in competition, I guess or something. But she was just a kind of a … I considered her a kind of a grumpy lady, you know. I never really visited with her much. I heard a lot of stories about her, but she was getting up in years. One thing I remember about working at the Hand Hotel was, we had a woman that lived out south of town here. Her name was Lehman I believe is the way it was spelled. My mother had told me she was doing abortions here in Fairplay. She would come in … I was telling my mother about this woman who would come in with these young teen…well they weren’t teenagers…they were older girls but they were not adult. She would come with them in on the Trailways bus and they would rent a room in the Fairplay Hotel. And they would go up to the room and we wouldn’t see anything of them again until the next day and they would probably have a meal or two. And then they would get back on the bus because we had a daily bus service. They would get back on the bus and leave. I knew this lady was coming from Denver. And my mother said that she was doing abortions. Well I would see this lady come quite often. It did appear that she was doing abortions. So one morning Junior Hand came down…he had gone up to clean the rooms. He came down and he was ranting and raving…he was absolutely furious. He said “We will never rent a room to that woman again.” She had obviously done an abortion. There was blood over everything in the room. She never came back. I never saw her again. I don’t know whether he … the next time she came he ran her off… I don’t know. But then later in researching the Flume I found where this woman was convicted of tax evasion. Six or eight years later after that the IRS convicted her of tax evasion claiming she had earned about $24,000 a year doing abortions. And it was legal. An abortionist sentenced for tax evasion! Wow! That was a huge deal at that time. She was named in the Flume and I have the notes at home that I wrote down. I think it was in 1954 that she was convicted. But it came out in the Flume, “Abortionist convicted of tax evasion.” And she was a surgical nurse in Denver. They claimed that she was making this money, not paying taxes on it. I guess it kind of ended her career for the time being. I don’t know how long she was sentenced. So it was proved later then that she was doing abortions in Fairplay. I thought that was interesting for me because I was there during that time and in researching through the Flume. And I think it was in 1954 that she was convicted. You were able to verify what was going on. �Yeah. Now was this … and I just know because you spoke in a previous interview about the hospital. Now weren’t you working at the hospital some time during this time too? I began working at the hospital about 1947. You were a wild girl! How did you do all these jobs?!! <laughter> Well there just seemed to be not enough people to do the jobs. So they kind of come and go over time with a few months…and then someone else needed help or…. mm-hum. I was still going to school and I worked at the hospital as an aide after school on the night shift. I would spend the night trying to sleep at the hospital. We didn’t have too many patients, but we had what is now termed the nursing home. They had what they called “the back porch” which was the back section with all the glass out there on the first floor. The rooms were just a small bed and I don’t think they were even the kind you could raise up. I think they were just a twin-size bed…just little partitions between the rooms. I don’t even remember if they had doors on them. I don’t know … or curtains. Anyway there were probably 8 or so people back there. Everybody just referred to “the back porch” as somebody out on the back porch. Well you knew what that meant and later I became aware of the term “nursing home.” Because a lot of people who could not be kept at home, could not live at home any longer, or they needed longterm care, they were put on the back porch. And I did work there. I just don’t know how you squeezed this all in. I mean was this typical? Did all the kids have these extra jobs? Or were you particularly motivated? I had to be motivated because I was supporting myself. A lot of the kids hardly worked…and yet in a way they did. A lot of the teenagers worked at the grocery store. What did they do there? They would stock the shelves and wait on people at the counter. Raymond Smith down here, he was working at Alscogs, we called it, when he was quite young. He was working there when my husband went and told him, “There’s an opening on the State Highway….are you interested.” Well he jumped on it of course. He worked there until he retired. Kids worked everywhere. And was that because of the war era…that there were so many adults missing? No, I think it was because it was cheap labor. And kids were more settled than they are now. �What do you mean by settled? Well…I’m not sure…we were more <laughter> work oriented or something? Nobody around here had much money. And if the kids could work and make 25 or 50 cents an hour…they did it. And now do most kids…would most kids contribute to the family income or was that…they’d use that money instead of asking their family for… A lot of the kids bought their own clothes with the money. I don’t think they’d contribute toward food or household expenses. …which took the burden off by providing for themselves… mm-hum. They had…we had a movie theatre…I think it cost 25 cents to go to the movies. And where was the theatre? Down there where the Swiss-Aire Condos are. <can’t understand> What were the hot movies? Who were the stars then? Oh I was hung up on Alan Ladd <laughter>. What movies did he play in? He played in Shane and most cowboy movies. I think he did play in one or two war movies. But I was hung up on him. And of course Bing Crosby was the most famous singer. Esther Williams and her swimming in the movies. Oh, there were just a lot of them that were still famous. And was that something you did often or was it a special thing to go to the movies? We went to the movies quite a bit. They changed … they just would show the movies just a couple of nights a week. And some local high school boy would run the projector. Do you remember who owned the theatre? Well they later…when they left here they went over to Breckenridge. And they constructed that Quonset-type structure outside of Breckenridge on Highway 9. I can’t… �Where the bears are…? mm-hum. And they they constructed that building and made a movie theatre there. And we also did roller-skating at the theatre. They would move the chairs and put them on the sidelines and then we would roller skate in the center. We would rent skates. I didn’t have my own skates. And do you remember how much it cost to rent skates? Probably 15 or 25 cents. It was very minimal. Now somewhere in here you met your husband. Right? You were in high school. You mentioned him earlier. mm-hum. And of course we kind of dated a little bit off and on…see he was 3 years ahead of me in high school. And we kind of dated a little bit off and on starting in 1945. And they he graduated from high school after that in the spring of I guess ’45 I’m not sure. But his mother died in the meantime and he was kind of left homeless. So he went to Denver and went to work after he graduated from high school. Doing what kind of work? He was picking up freight around Denver. And he was gone for a couple of years. And then we kind of started dating again. He wanted to get married. I said “I’ll marry you if you agree to live in Fairplay. I’m not living anywhere but Fairplay. That was it! You weren’t moving again. I wasn’t going to leave and so. In 1948 we got married and I didn’t graduate from high school until the year after the wedding. I continued to go to school. Was that common to be so young getting married? No but everybody accepted it and I went to each school board member first. I said if I get married can I graduate from high school? And Mary Kaye Snell, John Byer, Vic Baker were the three that I recall for sure that were on the school board. And Mary Kaye Snell said that the constitution guarantees you an education until you’re 21 years old. You cannot be denied going to school. And all the other ones said “ok, fine.” I don’t know if they ever really gave it any thought or whether they knew that there was no law against it. But anyway when I graduated from high school, my graduation picture and diploma says Marie Chisholm on it. <laughter> What did you do for a wedding? �We eloped pretty much. We went to Albuquerque. And my aunt Nancy and ex-brother-in-law were there. We went over to the courthouse and bought a license and a JP showed up and came and they arranged to have a JP there at the courthouse. We got married there. <laughter> Did you get any kind of honeymoon or anything? <laughter> Oh, on the way home I guess we kind of had a honeymoon. I don’t know. We stopped off in Santa Fe, maybe. And then we came around from Colorado Springs through Florissant and went through the fossil beds there. It wasn’t a National Monument at that time, it was privately owned. But they were charging people to go through it. And we went through there and came on home. That was pretty much a honeymoon. Where did you live? Our first house that we lived in was the little log house on Bogue Street just off of 6th. It’s very tiny. It had a very small kitchen with a wood cook stove and a table…just room enough for a table and chairs. We had water over the cabinet…no sink…just water over the cabinet. Everything had to … all the water had to go in a pan and be thrown out the door. We had an outhouse. We had a very small living room and then bedroom. The kitchen and the bedroom were back to back and across the front of the house was the living room. And that’s where we lived the first year we were married. And were you both working? Yeah. Well I was still in school. And I think after we got married I don’t think I worked for a year. What was he doing, working? He worked for…first of all he came up here and took odd jobs. He helped the ranchers … he helped them baling hay and stuff like that. And then he worked for a local coal and ice company. They delivered ice around Fairplay. Not everybody had ice or refrigerators. What was the company called? Remember? Fairplay Coal and Wood, I think it was called. He would haul coal up from Canon City and once in a while he would go to the western slope but not very often. Most of the coal came from Canon City and the mines around Canon City. In the summer…the first summer we were married…I would ride with him. We would go around Salida and then to Canon City because Highway 9 to Canon City was still a dirt road, and not very good. In fact it was a county road at the time. So we would take the highway around. He would deliver coal to individuals around town. He used old wood and I’m sure he bought wood somewhere and sold wood. But then he also sold ice and some of the ice came from the pond here in Fairplay. School kids would be paid to cut ice from the pond and store it in an insulated building here. I don’t recall them bringing ice from anywhere else. They may have. But refrigeration was still not in vogue I guess you would say <laughter>. �And you mentioned the cabin…now did you rent it or did you buy that? We rented it. Do you remember what you paid? It was very little…probably $25 a month or something like that. It was not much. Jack Ahern and his wife owned the property and we rented the cabin from them. And of course we couldn’t live there in the wintertime because they had to shut the water off to the cabin in the wintertime. ….end cabin…my sister, Ruby, she had a son, Norman, and he was ready to start the first grade. My sister wanted a permanent place for her son to go to school. So we rented a room, actually it was 2 rooms at the motel, on the end. It was a kitchen, a living room that had a fold-up bed…it had a bed that folded up into the wall. And a bathroom with a shower and a small bedroom. By that time my husband was working at the mines…in the mines. During that winter he worked at what is now called the Hilltop Mine which is at the top of the horseshoe gulch. Leadville was just over the hill…you could see Leadville from the up there. Anyway he would go up there and work at the…they would take the men up in a snow cat and they stayed for two weeks…and they would come home for one weekend and then they would go back up for two more weeks. They had a boarding house and everything up there and then come to town every two weeks. The operator up there would pick up supplies for food for the next two weeks and things like that. But anyway my nephew and I pretty much lived alone in the cabin, there. And my sister paid the rent. It was $50 a month. She was getting a veterans pension at the time because her husband died when he was in the Navy. He was the father of this 6-year old nephew of mine. So she paid the rent and many years later <can’t understand> owned the hotel at the time, and many years later she told me, she said “I’ll never forget the year you and Don lived at the motel because you were the only ones who paid your rent all winter.” <laughter> <laughter> Little did you know you were supporting the whole place! And during that time IvaNels <can’t understand> husband left and she had four daughters to support. She began working over here at the grocery store. After that she stayed at the grocery store all those years and then when the owner died he willed her all of his estate. Wow. And one of the buildings that he owned… Ok, now come on was there anything else going on or did she just work for him? She worked for him and then later on she became the Town Clerk also. So they didn’t have a relationship or anything that he would leave her all that he had? �No, he had no one else. He had no other relatives. His wife had died…his mother-in-law, his father-in-law had died. They had no children. He had quite a real estate holding around town. He was quite an entrepreneur, you could say. He would buy these old houses and fix them up and rent them. One of them is the 2-story house over here at the corner of 4th and Hathaway was one of them. And I don’t remember which other houses he owned. Oh later he bought the house … my first house in Fairplay. He converted it from a duplex to a single-family home. He closed in one front door and made it… he just gutted the whole inside and made it all into one home. But he had no one to leave his estate to. And she had worked for him for so many years that he left everything to her. I understand he owned some property in Washington state, like apple orchards or something. So later then the store was sold. Iva Nell also was the Town Clerk for a while. She could do both jobs. The Town did not conduct very much business during those years. We had one man that was the bank president, Jack Singleton and he was the Mayor in Fairplay. I don’t even remember if we bothered having an election. <laughter> So how did your involvement with the Town get started? Well my involvement with the Town did not start very long until about 1973 but I began working in Social Services, which is in the present Town Hall in 1949. I worked there for 5 years. What did you do with that? I was the clerk typist. Occasionally we did not have a Director and so I filled in there. And that was a County position? It’s county. It’s the same as Social Services now. Except we called it the Welfare Department. I could never justify having a full-time clerk typist because I didn’t have much to do. The justification was when the Director is out of the office somebody has to be here to answer the phone. I did a lot of extra things while I was there. Colonel Mayer, Frank Mayer, who was very famous in Fairplay…known as the last of the buffalo hunters. He was living…at first he was living up at what they call the Brisco Ranch, which is 3 miles out of town. But later when he got too old to walk the 3 miles to town and back I think he was close to maybe 96 or 98. He moved into Fairplay and lived in the little house that’s now included in South Park City. It was not South Park City at that time, of course. The little house was there. And he would come over to the…he had macular degeneration and he was nearly blind. So he would come over to the Welfare office where I worked, bring me his letters that he…any mail that he got…and I would read it to him. His hearing was very good. He could not see. By that time he was getting…he was able to walk to the post office here. But he couldn’t read and he couldn’t write for lack of vision. And so I would type as he would dictate his responses. What kind of man was he? He was a soldier…very precise. One thing I remember about him was when he stood up he stood very very straight. He was just like a board standing up because he was a tall man…somewhere around 6’. To me it was tall. He had a special friend, Lucy Roth, who wrote to him almost every week. He would dictate a response to her every week. He would always start out, “My dearest Lucy.” And I’m sure that…of course she… the house when he died…when he passed away he died at home and somebody noticed they hadn’t seen him for a while…or no he �didn’t die at home. I take that back. He was taken from the home and put in the nursing home…on the back porch <laughter>. Someone noticed he hadn’t been out to get his mail and so I think it was the Welfare Director, Harry Hiner, or the sheriff, I don’t know who, went over to the house and found him on the floor. He could not get up. The fire was out. He heated the house with a coal and wood stove. He was in pretty bad shape. They took him up to the hospital and he spent the rest of his life there, which was not long. He died just before he was 103. Oh my goodness. He lacked about 2 or 3 weeks being 103. He died just before his birthday. But they all said he lived to be 103. And I said that’s close enough. <laughter> Yeah I’d say within 2 weeks after 100 years… And he’s buried in the Fairplay cemetery. He was the one that dedicated the burro monument on Front Street when it was erected in the 1930’s whenever that was. He was an Army engineer, and he killed buffalo to feed the railroad workers when they were building the railroad across the United States. He had the title of being the last of the buffalo hunters. There was a magazine called the Western Outdoors, I believe that was the name of the magazine. And some writer did a story on him. Later somewhere I read about him in some other place, I don’t remember…about how he killed buffalo and this sort of thing. Did he tell you about it at all? Did talk about these things? Yes he talked about it. He talked about being an engineer. He was an engineer down in South America some too. He traveled the world, but he always came back to Fairplay. During his later years he lived up at the Brisco Ranch. Everyday that the mail came in he walked to Fairplay, got his mail, and walked back home….winter and summer. Occasionally someone would give him a ride home. And the traffic…we didn’t have much traffic on the highway at that time. People did not go very much. Sometimes people would give him a ride up to where County Road 1 takes off from Highway 9. It’s just across from the Snowstorm Dredge. Then he would walk the rest of the way to the house…the cabin where he lived in. But nobody believed some of the stories he would tell. He would come to town and talk to the various people and nobody believed a lot of the stories he would tell. He was editor of this outdoor western magazine. In 1906 when the San Francisco earthquake hit. He brought me a magazine and showed it to me and it had his name on it as Editor. And it had pictures of the fires and the tumbled-down buildings and things. And it said, “This is why our issue is late.” Because a lot of buildings burned and things like that. So he did have proof that he did a lot of things. So you believed him. Well, I believed everything he told me. And later… somebody interviewed him for this magazine and titled it “The Last of the Buffalo Hunters.” Well he got mail from everywhere. Of course he would bring all the mail to me to read to him…fan mail. They wanted to interview him. They wanted him to write stories. They wanted so many things and I could never understand. But he would pick out a few things…a few people. Maybe it was the way they wrote the letter. But he would pick out certain things that he would respond to…and others he would not. And I would say, but this man wants… and nope he wasn’t going to do it! �What happened to all those papers and letters? I have no idea. His home was pretty cluttered. It was pretty dirty because he couldn’t see. Ashes were scattered around. When he took the ashes out they would fall and he didn’t know it. He had no idea. And I think that Lucy Roth probably got everything. Lucy Roth has since passed away. And there’s a daughter I believe. I think Lucy has passed away. She lived in Boulder or someplace, I’m not sure where she lived. But it was somewhere in Colorado. She inherited the house and the…and the contents. What became of that I don’t know. I don’t want to keep you too long…you’ll lose your voice. <laughter> You have so many stories we could talk about. What kinds of things would you want people to know…I mean…kind of …we’ve missed a huge chunk of the later things that you’ve been doing…but as far as when you talk about these families and you’ve cooperated, and you’ve raised each other’s kids and…the changes in Fairplay over time that you have seen…what would you want people to know? There are only, right now, three people still living in Fairplay…Louise Kintz…Louise Kintz came in 1940, so she, and she’s older than I am…so she remembers a lot more about people who have lived here. But the town has changed so drastically. Tell me, like, good and bad….positive and negative. Well, we have a … a mobile population. They come…they stay a little while…and then they’re gone. A lot of … How has that changed the town dynamics? People are not interested in what…they don’t have a clue what’s going on in town now. Most of them don’t. Other than the streets get rough and they want the streets sanded or something. They go to work, they come home, and they have no clue who’s running the town, what’s going on in town. And they don’t realize that there’s separate governments, even. They think that Fairplay is just Park County. They don’t realize that…maybe they know it’s the county seat but they don’t realize it’s an incorporated town. And having only two incorporated towns in this huge county…most people don’t even know that. I feel that the population now is totally uninformed. What should they know…what should people realize? I think they should realize…keep a better eye on the government. Keep a better eye on how the money is spent and some of the deals that are being made that are not exactly kosher. They should become better informed. But right now most of the population here is only interested in what’s going on in school…if they have kids in school. And they’re interested in going to work and coming home and not caring what happens in town. Like I say, if their water is shut off they have a fit. And if the streets are not well maintained, they have a fit. Other than that they don’t really care what’s going on. It doesn’t seem to affect them or bother them. I became involved in the town business because I was aware…I always read the newspaper, the Fairplay Flume, when �it was published here in town. And I was always very involved in one way or other with town and county government….mostly town government….but only as a citizen. Before 1973 the town was ready to sell part of their water rights out in Silverheels Ranch. And I was very adamant about the town hanging on to all their water rights. So I think this was about 1966 that I really got involved in the town business because the developers were coming in and wanting this and that and the other from the town. They would get their money and leave and leave the town holding the bag for future expenses for things that they kind of slided over that the town didn’t expect to happen. So when the proposal to sell water to this subdivider came out, I wrote a letter to the editor and explained how precious our water was and how it meant the future of the town. Was this happening when all the ranches were selling their water? How does this fall in line with that? mm-hum. Yeah. The ranchers were selling water. All during that same… After that same…after that time. But the developer out there couldn’t…water laws changed drastically about 1965 or 66, and you had to have augmentation and you couldn’t supply a public…well you couldn’t supply any subdivision unless you had an augmentation plan. In order to sell the land to begin with, once it was subdivided, you had to have an augmentation water plan. So how that house would get water. mm-hum. They could drill their own well. The state water laws changed so that all water wells had to be registered if you wanted to protect your water rights. Until about that time nobody could sell water from the land. I have an article that was dated 1934…I just ran across it the other day….where all the water in Park County was going to be sold to Denver for $2 million. I don’t know what happened…I guess at that time I believe the water had to go with the land. Then water laws began to change. The article said that if all the water was sold to Park County it would go back to what it was when the Indians were here…before the ranchers came. But I became very involved at that time and it just continued on. And in 1973 I could see that these developers were wanting so much from the Sanitation District and the town and so I decided to get involved by getting on the Sanitation District board to keep the Board from expanding out without getting the developers to pay for it. They were slipping so much stuff past us taxpayers. So I got on the Sanitation Board and I continued on that Board. I actually retired in ’92 and I was an employee for the last 10 years … from ’82 to ’92 as Manager and Waste Water Operator. Then I retired. I traveled for about 15 months and I came home. I said “I’ve gotta do something”. So I went back on the Sanitation District Board as a member until 2002 when I was defeated in the election in that year. And was that the Mayoral election? In 1998 I was elected to the Town Board and so I served both boards at the same time. I learned a lot about town government. In 1976 I began writing grants for the Sanitation District so I got involved in grant writing. I’ve continued that even now as a…first of all as a town board member. I started as a Sanitation Board member because we needed money to expand the system. That �was in ’76. We got grant money in ’82 to do the expansion…it takes a while with the money. Then I served on the State Health Dept Committee to establish a revolving loan fund, it’s called, for water and sanitation grants and loans. They don’t give you money too much anymore. I continued to get grant money as a town board member and I got $450,000 which we turned back $39,000 to help pave part of the streets and put in water drains to preserve the asphalt that’s put in. I also got $1.25 million to put curb, gutter and sidewalks on Main Street which will take place in summer, 2004. I became involved with Alma’s government in 1986 as a Waste Water Operator. I got grant for Alma and loan money for $1 million to redo their water source and redo the water lines in the Town of Alma because they had very small, bad water lines, and expand their waste water system. I quit doing that in ’91 because the project was finished and had no more need to continue that. By that time I was also on the town board of Fairplay. I got grant money there. But now I’m back working for Alma to try to raise $1.35 million to do curb, gutter and sidewalks and storm drains in Alma. I currently have $1 million promised. It’s verbal right now. I will proceed this winter and next spring to get the balance of the $350,000 that’s needed for that project which should take place in 2005. How has the water changes? You’ve seen a huge shift and obviously you’ve worked in this for a long time, after the sale of water. How has that impacted the community here? How have things changed? The town began in the 1800’s to protect the town water rights. This was when water laws were starting to be enacted. And in 1881 or 7 they took action to protect water rights…the town board did at that time. They had an attorney on the town board and he was very aware of laws. Who was that <can’t understand>? No I would have to look back in the records. I was just <can’t understand>. But as far as I mean you look at the ranches how they’ve changed and when you talked about that first view of Kenosha Pass…how has it impacted life here? It has changed life drastically in the Park because ranchers were all over. They ranched…there were many, many ranches. They raised hay and cattle and horses. We didn’t have many sheep because cattle and sheep were not to be mixed. You know … well this was the pioneer era when they hated the sheep men because the sheep would cut the grass down too short. And it would take a long time for it to regenerate. So they didn’t like sheep because they would clean the grass out. And cattle just nip the tops off…kind of like mowing and it’s still there. So the ranchers all filed on their water rights and they used that irrigation water…they flood-irrigated the meadows from early spring until probably 2 weeks before they started haying which was sometimes in the middle of August, sometimes later, sometimes earlier…it depended. They flood-irrigated which made the whole Park lush and green. Then … in earlier times in Park County they formed a water district and it was primarily to keep the water in the Park. Later it was ranchers on the board and they wanted to keep the water until they were ready to retire and sell it. This became the object of being on the board. I resented it. I felt it had a conflict of interest. And this was what happened. And then gradually Denver was looking for more water….Denver, Aurora, Thornton, Colorado Springs. Of course Colorado Springs didn’t get much water from the Park. But they did buy one ranch south of Fairplay just for the water rights sitting on it. But anyway they were looking for water and as the ranchers retired they sold their water. And the first one to �break this law or get it through court to sell water from the land was between Guero and Hartsel…Augustine was his name, I think I’ve told this before. This started a trend. Did people resent it? They got a lot of money. What did people think of that? Or did people think much about it? I don’t think people gave it much thought but I did. I was in the extension office for 15 years and I was secretary for the Central Colorado Cattlemen’s association for 22 years starting in 1961. This was when the water trend started to change. So you really saw that. And I would talk to these ranchers and I would say, “Well what’s going to happen to the Park?” Well it’s going to go back to what it was before it was ever irrigated. And I couldn’t imagine what it was going to look like. But now I know what it’s going to look like because it’s burned up grass…very little green pastures and fields unless we get a lot of natural moisture. But they had no qualms about selling their water rights. In their mind this was their right to do it because they owned it and you can sell anything you own. I admired the ranchers. The ranchers were the nicest bunch of people in anywhere that I’ve ever met. They were gentlemen. They were honest. They didn’t pull any shenanigans. They didn’t steal cattle. And they were helpful to each other. They were…it was a group that was like one big family too. And they were always very good to me. I just admired them. They were hard-working. They were honest. They were dedicated to the county and to the schools and the 4H programs that are going on but kind of on a different plane. When they had cattle, they donated calves to the 4H kids to raise to keep the money….. Tape 3 of 3 (Side 1) Ok, here we go. We’re starting Tape 3 with Marie and Cara. Marie has so much energy she’s still telling me stories. So we’re going to capture a little bit of that before we poop out. We were talking about the snow and how that’s changed here. When I first came here, the first winter here, we had a lot of snow in the winter. And of course it blew a lot. But we paid no attention to it, other than I had to walk against the wind to get home from school. No one ever transported their kids to school if they lived here in town. We went home for lunch and we walked home after. It amazes me to this day all the cars lined up picking kids up at school. Yes. And nowadays if it’s 2 blocks to school they bring them to school in a car. But in 1945 we had a lot of moisture. Particularly in the spring we always had heavy snowstorms in the spring…March, April May. And even into June those were heavy snowstorm years. See I’ve only been here 7 years but I really haven’t seen much of the stories I hear with the snow. �Well, we have gone into a period of drought. In 1948 the first winter I spent here we had a lot of snow. And even in the winter of ’47 when I was still dating before I got married, I know that a lot of the younger people they paid no attention to blizzards or snow or anything. Of course we had no weather forecasts or anything like that, especially for up here. And they would go back and forth from Fairplay to Denver and think nothing of it. Now when you talk about a lot of snow…what is a lot of snow? 3-4 feet. Usually about 2 feet though. 18” to 2 feet was normally what we would get in any one storm. Could the cars get through? Did things just stop for a couple of days? What happened? No I don’t ever recall them ever closing the road unless a snow drift went clear across the road and closed it that way. We had lots of accidents but the snow plows were out plowing snow. And people did not travel that much. We did not have traffic like we have now. The people did not travel at night too much like they do now. I do recall that my husband was in a car accident with his buddy, Ronnie Barlow, who had family here. They had a car accident on Reiniker Ridge which is still a good place for car accidents. He got a cut quite a gash above his eye brow. We had no doctor at the time. Somebody brought him back into town. So he went to the hospital here. The hospital was still in business. Now this was the old hospital as we refer to it now. But a nurse on duty, she was fairly new. It was Sadie Hand. I don’t remember her maiden name. But she later married Bill Hand. She was working there and she sewed him up. She sewed up this gash of his eye and later I talked to her about it. You don’t know how my hands were shaking. She said it was my first time to even sew up anybody. We had incidences like that. I was an aide at the hospital and would have these emergencies. Usually all we could do was patch them up. One man who cut his foot with an axe, he I just taped it up and sent him on to Denver on the Trailways bus. This was the way things went. But the car accidents were very severe because they didn’t have protection in cars like they do today. Even so, the snow never seemed to stop the school buses. They ran regardless. And quite often it was a high school student that was driving the bus…especially from Jefferson to Fairplay. This was when all the schools were consolidated into…and everyone came from Fairplay to school except for the outer limits of the county where they went for high school. But <laughter> anyway, I recall that was the winter of ’48 we had a lot of snow. In 1969 in particular, we had 3’ of snow that started Labor Day weekend and people came up here to the Park to the campgrounds and everything to camp out for Labor Day weekend. And we got 3’ of snow. Those people left. They were absolutely…they pulled out…they left their tents…they left their camping equipment. They thought they were there for the rest of their life. And at the same time the Coil Ranch…Walter and Arlene Coil..had a kind of exchange student from Nigeria. When this 3’ of snow fell, he thought he was here for the rest of his life too. He had never seen snow. He had never seen an icicle form coming off the roof. But most of the people then had snow mobiles and got out of the ranches by snowmobile. After the storm hit…my husband I would go around to the campgrounds. And here was all this stuff just sitting there. Anybody could have helped themselves to many things, but apparently they waited and came back after the roads were opened. The snow continued to stack up that year. It did not blow in South Park all winter long. The winter of ’69 and ’70. �<laughter> I missed it. We can hear the wind howling today. And the snow continued to stack up. It seemed like every little time we turned around there was more snow coming. It would settle but it did not go anywhere. And by Spring, in April, we had a 60 degree day hit. The weather warmed to 60 degrees and it continued. It never got down below freezing during the night and all of the snow melted. It flooded the entire Park. It’s hard to imagine. All of the South Park out here was under water. The ranchers were all under water. And the bridge down by Hartsel, the one that goes just West of Hartsel, it’s on highway 24. It was damaged. However the state highway didn’t know of the extent of the damage. So they let traffic go over the bridge out of Hartsel going to Denver or Colorado Springs. They decided to bring in a plow driver to do new pilings under the bridge because it had washed out so much around it, the Platte and everything had just washed out around this bridge. When the plow driver pulled out on the bridge he fell through. So then they realized that all this traffic had just been going through on the asphalt that was there. There was nothing there to support the traffic. What kept people from falling through I don’t know. But two bridges east of Hartsel on highway 24 were totally shut down because the water was about to wash them out. I took pictures for the newspaper at that time and that’s how come I remember. The whole town of Hartsel was isolated. There was no way to get or get out because the bridges and highways were under water. The little old building on the south over there it was practically floating because it sits up on a hill. The water was clear up around it. So is that the biggest snow you recall while you were here. That was the one year that people who had lived here for 50 or 60 years had never seen anything like it. But we continued to have snow every winter except most of it blew away. And of course when we have these blizzards, what doesn’t stack up, just dissipates into the air. So that kind of takes care of it. In later years when the traffic got heavier and the blizzards would hit, they would start closing the highways to keep accidents from happening. My husband worked for the State Highway. He started working for the State Highway in 1951 and he worked out toward Jefferson and Kenosha Pass for the first two years. We had been to Denver one day, and we came through in a blizzard. There was a Trailways bus ahead of us. The Trailways bus was stopped because the sun was shining in your eyes and you couldn’t see anything except below the car hood. That was so scary. The Trailways driver had stopped and so my husband went to see what was wrong. The guy said “I just can’t see the road.” So we pulled around him and he just followed us. And we just sort of went by guessing. And I don’t know how we got through. We got over by Como where you go into Como and here was the snow plow. His engine had drowned out from the snow packing into the engine. And so we brought him into town. <laughter> �It sounds like a parade. <laughter> Yeah. But we had so much snow. And the ranchers, of course, were glad to see it. I’m trying to think when it was when this drought began. It gradually kind of tapered down in the ‘60’s and after the ‘60’s it started tapering down. I recall one June, 27th of June of 1951 we had 23” of snowfall. <laughter> June. Whew. I’m glad I missed that one. <laughter> It didn’t last too long. Probably now. But we’ve had snow year-round. I remember seeing a few flakes of snow falling in August. But the winters…we just stayed home pretty much except for going to school and things like that. We didn’t go to Denver. We didn’t travel to Denver that much. So if there was a bad snow storm we just waited and pretty soon we could go. You could go. But now people think they have to travel regardless. And they get very upset…well they usually have appointments or some need to get to Denver. Or they have to get somewhere. The winter of ’82 we started for Denver for Christmas. We had nothing in the Park…beautiful, sunshiny day. I kept listening to the news and they kept talking about how bad it was getting down there. And sure enough we got down there and people were just stuck everywhere. There was no traffic anywhere. It took us 2 hours to get from Morrisson to 60th and Sheridan in Denver. This was before Hampden was constructed. On the way through we usually turned off at Morrison to go to the north side of Denver. How has Denver changed? Huh! Denver has changed enormously. When you first got here, did you have chances to see Denver? Not too much. We hardly ever went to Denver because we could buy gas here. We could buy tires here. We could buy cars here. We could buy clothing. When did that change? �It started changing pretty much in the ‘70’s. People became more mobile and by 1976 we had a lot of people going back and forth to work in Denver. And then they declared a gas shortage. The price of gas went up. People quit doing that so much. But then pretty soon that all changed again. It depends on circumstances more than anything…and how much it costs you to go to Denver. I’m sorry…I’ve got a catch in my throat <cough>. What did you see change in Denver over…. Oh Denver was very small…by the time you got to Federal Blvd. You were clear out in the country until you got to Federal, Wadsworth or some of those. The streets…it was still farmland. And later the traffic and parking got so congested that they changed the downtown streets to one way and I hated that. When was that? Well, I’m not sure when it really took place. I think it was somewhere in the ‘60’s that that happened. I recall in 1968 I decided to go to Denver to see Peggy Flemming because she was that Olympic champion. Oh I loved her when I was little. Yes. So I loaded my kids into the car. My husband didn’t want to go. We went to Denver and I70 of course wasn’t constructed at that time or any of the interstates. Or at least that I knew about or drove. And I started driving the wrong way on a one-way street. And my kids started telling me that I was going the wrong way on a one-way street. So I turned around and picked another route to get to the coliseum where Peggy was skating after she became a champion. I think we had to take Brighton Blvd or something to get to the coliseum. And then the interstates have gone in and the beltways, the freeways. I still drive it. But sometimes after they changed the 23rd Street viaduct and some of that interchange of what they call the mousetrap…I get confused as to which lane I need to be in and sometimes I miss getting on to I-70 and wind up on I-25. <laughter> I do too. <laughter> Because I haven’t learned which is which. My son, after he got out of high school in ’75, he became a heavy equipment operator. He started working for Park County. Which son was this? Kenny. And he joined the Union…Teamsters Union…or whatever they call them…as a heavy equipment operator. So he has helped construct a lot of things in Denver. He was the first…he and another man drove the first piece of heavy equipment to start DIA airport. They did it mostly for publicity because that was the day they were supposed to break ground. They hadn’t really started breaking ground but they had these two earth movers out there. They were just out there �driving and they televised them. They were on TV. Then later the real construction started. He was involved in the interchange from the 23rd Street Viaduct. That used to be an old dump where that is now. And they found a lot of old, old bottles when they started excavating the dirt. Some of the workers took a lot of them home because they were quite valuable. Some of them got broken during the construction, you know, but they found that was an old dump for Denver. He’s helped … he’s just been involved in a lot of the interstate work so he knows them really well. Is he married? He’s married. He doesn’t have any children. He has two step sons. And both of my boys grew up here. Tell me about your other son. My other son, Keith. He left here when he got out of high school and he was with a band that included Brian Williard, who’s still playing. My son plays a base guitar. Bob Cocolie who was also here, he worked for the State Highway. They all formed a band when they were here. What was it called? Do you remember the name of it? They called themselves “Alma’s Only Boys”. OK AOB <laughter>. Anyway they decided…they got an agent and he was going to make them a lot of money. So they went to Houston. Well, they sound up digging ditches to keep from starving. My son got involved in oil field work and he worked in the oilfields until they started going bad. So by that time I was a waste-water operator. I said this is the career you need to learn and get into. So he did that. He got certified in Colorado. Then he married a woman from Vermont but he couldn’t find work as a waste-water operator because he was just new at it. So they went back to Vermont and spent 2, 3 or 4 years…I don’t know how long now. He got a lot of experience in Vermont. And then in ’91 when my husband was terminally ill with cancer, they wanted to move back to Colorado. So he was able to find work in the waste-water field, starting with MartinMarietta, which is now called Lockheed-Martin. Now he lives in Littleton and he’s employed by Genesse Mountain Water and Sanitation District. He’s been there several years now. And now do they have any kids? They have two….a daughter whose 15, Amanda. And a son who’s 11, named Kyle. <laughter> Jumping around…I have a couple of other questions…what was it like raising boys here in Fairplay...a little bit about that. And the other, I have to ask, is how on earth did you get into waste-water treatment…how did you learn that? Because here’s this lady working in �offices and waiting tables…and now here you’re telling me you’re running this wastewater thing and I didn’t get a chance to ask you how that happened either. Well when I went on the Sanitation Board in 1976 I had been on the Board 3 years. But they passed a law that there could not be a waste water or water operator without being certified by the State. We would get an operator…hire somebody…it was a parttime job. It paid about $100/month. They would get trained…we would send them to school…and they’d get trained…and then they would move on after about a year. And this went on and on. We had about a new one about every year. And so finally, before 1982, Beth Swanson’s father lived here. He was the operator here. We were getting ready to upgrade. He had to leave because of his wife’s health. So they moved to lower altitude. Anyway, in desperation I said teach me this business. I was still a Board member, but I decided in order to keep an operator here for any length of time I … somebody had to get certified who would stay here. Yep…and you weren’t moving. I wasn’t moving. And I about caused the men who… I went to Boulder to take the test … <laughter> Did they have a heart attack? And the man dropped his chin on the table when I walked up to the table and they were handing out examination papers. And I gave him my name and he picked out my paper…the paper with my name on it. And he turned around to hand it to me. And you should have seen his jaw drop. Because I was gray-headed at that time and kind of showing my age. <laughter> Good for you! But I passed the test and I had no instructions hardly. I had 3 days of training from Larry Thompson. I had to learn the rest of it by guess or by gosh or from the book and it was … I just kind of fumbled my way though. I’m still certified. I just renewed my certification. I just got my certificate last week. Just to fill in somewhere when Alma was without a water operator…wastewater operator…well I started work for Alma in 1986. I began as a waste-water operator at that time for Alma also. That’s when I got grant money to upgrade. Nick Gradke came along and Gary Dorne and I didn’t…when I first started working for him. And then I trained Nick during the time that I was up there. And I didn’t want to do the water because it’s an every-day job. You have to do it 365 days a year. And so Nick became the operator, waste-water operator. He got licensed. But that’s how I got involved in it. OK. I had to cover that base … tell me we got you married but kind of skipped the boys when they were young. Can you tell me about them? First when you first get married in Fairplay, the rumor is always that you had to get married. Well I didn’t have any children until 6 ½ years after we were married. Who was first? �Keith was first. He was born here at the local hospital. The day I took him home… I don’t recall how many days I was in the hospital….at that time they kept you for probably a week. But the day I left the hospital which was March there was a snowstorm and 40-mile an hour wind. When I got outside I had him all covered up but the wind blew the blanket back and here was this cold snow hitting him in the face. And he was going “HA HA HA”! <laughter> What an introduction…!!! Yeah! Welcome to the world, son! And then the next one I went to Denver to have him. He was delivered at St. Joseph’s hospital because I had a lot of health problems after the first one was born. So he was born in Denver but only long enough to be born and come home. And the rest of them…now the rest of the time they were born and raised here. Now I’m not remembering…we talked earlier…what years were they born? ’55 and ’56. They were only 16 months apart. What did you do with little ones? Your mom with two little boys. Tell me what kinds of things you did. Well, until that time I had worked. I was working at the welfare office. Then I took...I resigned. I did go back a short time to fill in for a director who left but just for a couple of months. After my children were 5 years old I went back to work at the Extension Office. I worked there for 15 years. From ’61 to ’76. But the boys they were kind of independent little rascals. What did little ones do for fun? Well they mostly played in the yard except for Keith who had a wanderlust. He would wander off. He was 3 years old. I would have the whole neighborhood out looking for him. <laughter> Any particular <can’t understand> you remember? Does one stand out? We decided we’d better put a fence around the yard to keep them in and while the fence was being built they were climbing over it. There was no way to keep those kids home or keep them in the yard other than this and watching every minute. They played in the dirt a lot. We had what we called Huck Finn Day. We would dress them up and enter them in the Huck Finn contest when they were 9 or so years old. And they would win every time. And people were beginning to get a little irate because they would win money and bicycles and things like that. Because they were blond-headed, freckle-faced. They had the right look. �They had the look. We quit entering them into the Huck Fin contest after a while <laughter> So did they go fishing? That was one of the things they liked to do with their dad…go fishing. Of course their dad took them hunting when they were old enough to go. That was one of their highlights…going hunting and fishing. They know Park County…or this end of Park County…better than I do. They still come back to hunt and fish. Even though they have families and wives…the wives don’t usually come up here because they’re mostly city-persons. They don’t know what to do with themselves <laughter> It’s really different. Well they can’t go shopping and there’s not much entertainment so they hardly ever come up unless there’s something specific to come for. But my two sons come and hunt and my son Keith and grandson they come up and fish and daughter Amanda she comes sometimes. But she’s at the point now where she has to be with her girlfriends. And if she doesn’t bring girlfriends then forget it because she’s not going to come. And that sort of thing. But Kyle my grandson still likes to come. So how do you see them…when you look at those kids…Amanda…she’s close to the age when you first got here. How have families changed? Do you see families changing and life here being different for kids the same age you were? Well, family life nowadays is not anywhere near what it was like then because we all had our meals together. Kids nowadays come home…. We were talking about family life and the grand kids. Sometimes I don’t think that parents overall are disciplining their children or teaching them the skills to become wives and mothers. I see this so very very much. They don’t know how to cook. They don’t know how to clean house. They don’t know how to do anything. They don’t know how to sew or crochet or knit… Look at the home skills like your grandmother had. Yeah. But I know so many girls nowadays that are getting married that have none of those skills because the family…it’s not a group anymore. They each go their individual ways. Both parents are off working and sometimes at the same time they’re gone and the kids kind of take care of themselves. And I don’t … or else go to a babysitter, and the babysitter doesn’t allow them to do these things like cook and clean house, you know. So they don’t develop these skills. And I think it’s unfortunate. What strikes me odd though is that most men are doing the cooking nowadays, which I think is unusual. Because in my day the men did not go near the kitchen �unless they were training to be a chef or a cook in a restaurant or something like that. But that was a kind of a macho era. And doing cooking or housework was not macho. <laughter. mm-hum. That was true. And a lot of the men back in the old days, though. They would go to the bar and socialize and drink beer. And the women did not go. They stayed home. We did have a lot of dances, though, at the hut. Even after… the younger people and the older people, we all had dances quite often every Saturday night at the hut. And we had live bands. And there was an admission fee and all that which paid for the expense of the hut and paid for the orchestra. And then Deacon Judd, he had dances up at the…what did they call it…it was the house up Mosquito…he had a name for it. Maybe it was just Deacon’s. Maybe we just said “we were going to Deacon’s”. But Deacon also played there. Edna Miller also played with him. Also he owned the Park Bar at one time and we had dances there. And it was not unusual for the teenagers to go to the bars. They didn’t drink. They just went for the entertainment. After we were married we spent a lot of time going to Deacons for the dances and stuff that he would have up there. <laughter> And the Park Bar. And even nowadays, some people that were born and raised in the early era where women did not go to the bar…that was taboo… But here in Fairplay we never thought anything about it. And what is now called the Friendship Inn used to be called the Playmore. And we had dances there. And we would go and dance to the jukebox or whatever. It was just … that was some of our entertainment, was dancing… going to dances. We all started when we were very young. <laughter> Even the 9 and 10-year olds were going to the youth center to dance…learning. And I remember living in New Mexico one time it was in an out-of-the-way little town, and that was where I first tried to learn to dance. I think I was about 11 or 12…somewhere along there. My mother…it was after the war and she was a Guard at Ft. Wingate, which is in New Mexico. It was an underground ammunition storage place. The town was called McGaffee. I spent the summer there. That’s as long as I was there. I didn’t go to school there or anything. That was where I first started learning to dance. My mind is willing but my body isn’t right now. <laughter> I still love music and I would love to dance if I had the energy and the stamina…that’s what I’m trying to think of. I run out of breath too soon. <laughter> Well you’re so busy with so many things. <laughter> Well, I notice that I get breathless quite often now when I’m active <laughter>. <can’t understand> Well I’m going to give you a break. I want to thank you so much for your stories. And I know I could do, like, 10 more tapes <laughter> with you. I appreciate your time today. I don’t want to wear you out because it gets tiring. Well I have stories about individuals and like we had this character in Alma that used to sleep behind the Gateley Motor Company in his car. Do you remember his name? �Duke Beals. We always laughed about it. You know, they always talk about a one-dog night or two-dog night. And they determined how cold it was by how many dogs he had sleeping with him to keep him warm <laughter>. When was that? Oh gosh. That was in the ‘50’s I would suppose. Does anyone else stand out in particular? Well, we had our town drunks and characters, you know. <laughter> The forest ranger here, he was not a town drunk, but his name was Smith. I believe his first name was Frances Smith. Maybe that was Mrs. Smith. Anyway the only name I recall specifically. They lived at the ranger station up here and the children went to school here. But he would go to the bar and have his nightly beer. When he talked he whispered. He never talked loud. And so everybody named him “Whispering Smith.” He was Raymond and Dick Smith’s father. Marilyn Smith’s father, Leo Smith...Leo Smith started the first grade here. I used to watch him go to school because he had to come down from the ranger’s house across my house when I lived up on Second Street. And to go to school. He went to priesthood. He became a priest. He’s now retired and back in Fairplay. Oh he is over here? Yeah. He’s living here. He’s living in Marilyn’s house. He lived here right after high school but maybe he could tell you some things. Most of his priesthood was served in Akron, Colorado. He was there for many years. And then he went over to Summit County…I think Frisco or Breckenridge. I don’t recall which one. But Marilyn was a Smith and she and Willie Johnson married and then Willie Johnson, of course, died. But they were an old, old family…the Johnson’s were. And the last of the Johnson’s…Allyn Johnson just died…she was 98. Oh no. I missed her. And she had a lot of stories. In fact, the family had a lot of stories to tell. Mary Kay’s now…her maiden name was Horein and her father was a judge here, I believe. I believe he was a judge. And Mary Kaye’s home was over there on Front Street…still is. Her daughter has now remodeled it. It’s next to what we called the Teeter Garage. But Mary Kaye and I came from pretty much the same country in New Mexico. And one day at school my kids were having a 3-legged race. They would put 2 legs in a gunny sack. mm-hum. I remember playing that. And Mary Kaye and I used to reminisce a lot because we had sayings that were different than they are in Colorado. And she leaned over to me and she said do you remember when we used �to call them toe sacks? And I busted out laughing because I guess the expression got started because they used them for races, I don’t know. But now in Colorado we call them gunny sacks. And another time the Extension Agent, Tom Knight, he was talking to someone on the phone and he was trying to explain to this person that the cows were down by the breaks. And I kept listening to him and chuckling to myself. He kept saying “Well you know…down by the breaks.” Finally after he hung up I said “Tom, nobody in this country has any clue what ‘the breaks’ are.” The breaks was a wooded area we referred to in New Mexico. See Tom Knight came from New Mexico also. All I can think of is wind break or something. Well maybe. But in New Mexico you didn’t have too many breaks. <laughter> There’s not too many trees growing. Tom was a funny guy. He had a sense of humor, you know. And the ranchers, they just really liked him. He worked a lot with the ranchers. He was a sheep man over in Craig before he came over here. He knew cattle and 4H…he was very good in 4H. I remember a lot of stories such as that. Because there were a lot of people here that I related to from my previous home. Maybe we can catch you on another day when we can go over some of the names of people. There are so many famous names around here. I have to stop and think about some of them. You mentioned Judge Mayhew. Stan came here 30 or more years ago from New York. Boy what a change that would be. That would be a culture shock as far as I’m concerned. He opened an office over there on Front Street where he still was until recently. He was very quiet…single, of course. He was not very friendly. In New York people didn’t talk to other people, you know. They would…even their nextdoor neighbor or in the apartment house…they would never talk to them. And so when Stan first came here, he … you would speak to him and try to start up a conversation with him and he would just answer in one word and go. Especially if you saw him in the grocery store. The grocery store was across the street. It was Pococks Grocery. And this is where most people went and learned what was going on in town. Sure…stop to chat. Yeah. I still remember Stan being very quiet and not very friendly. I’m trying to think of the year…he married my son Kenny and his girlfriend…his fiancé…he married them here in Fairplay. Oh, ok. Stan had…still does to a certain extent…a speech impediment. And this might be why he did not like to converse with people too much. But when my son, Kenny, and his then wife…or fiancé…decided to get married…they wanted to be married in the church. Stan performed the �ceremony. And I was very impressed with his ceremony….the way he spoke. Every word was enunciated perfectly and very slowly. His ceremony was very impressive all the way around. And they were married for 9 years and then got a divorce, but I thought it was one of the nicest wedding ceremonies I had seen. I still reflect back to Stan when he first came. I don’t think he would have performed a wedding ceremony. Of course he couldn’t do it…I mean legally…until he became a judge…I don’t know. People used to get married by JP’s they called them…Justice of the Peace. And the JP’s also handled traffic cases. Almost anything, hunting violations or almost anything…any type of law violation…the JP’s handled it. We used to have a JP in Alma. His last name was Palmer…I can’t remember what his first name was. He would come to Fairplay. He ran a shuttle between Fairplay and Alma. He would meet the Trailways bus and anybody who needed to go to Alma, he would drive them to Alma. He handled drunken cases and all this. But he was a kind of a drunk himself. <laughter> <laughter> Well then he could understand. <laughter> But he would perform weddings. And he would come down here and hold his court…I don’t remember now where he held court. And then later State law outlawed JP’s. They couldn’t do that anymore. But they still elect judges. Back in those years you could become a judge…a county judge…no training…nothing. Earnest Twidded, in 1960 I guess…no…anyway he became a county judge. And he knew nothing about being a judge. <laughter> Kinda scary isn’t it? Yeah because this was in ’55. He must have been elected in ’54 and took office in ’55. Anyway he wanted me to come and work for him because I had worked for the county judge previously for a short time. But he wanted me to come work for him because he didn’t have a clue how to be a judge. He managed. He was a judge for a while. I don’t know whether he was not in office or whether he passed away while he was in office. But I went to school with his son, Earnest Twidded, Jr. He was one of my classmates. This was how things were run around here. You went to work and you learned the job and people elected somebody sheriff. And people had no clue about what was…even yet… how to be a sheriff. They have no law enforcement background. It was based on popularity more than anything else. We had a sheriff here. He was sheriff for 37 years, I think…<Bes Law> I ran across his photo yesterday. We had.what we call “Nights in ’93”, which everybody dressed up as 1893 costumes. And this went on for 3, 4, 5 years I don’t know how long. But anyway, Bes Law and our Town Marshall were dressed up. The Town Marshall was dressed up in an old English Bobby suit and Bes Law was dressed as a western sheriff with 2 big guns and a 10-gallon hat. Anyway Bes Law was sheriff here for 37 years. He was defeated in 1954 I believe by Corbin Cotton. A big change. Yeah. It was. But we didn’t have much crime. And when there was much crime it didn’t get solved. <laughter> It was just petty stuff mostly. We did have one person killed on the highway here in ’45 by a hit and run driver. Never knew who killed him. His name was George Hansen. He was walking home from the bar. And apparently someone was driving home from the bar that hit him. It was in the middle of the night. �Nobody said anything. It was a hit and run…and never found out who did it. He was a young man too…early 30’s. We’ve had a lot of things happen around here that have been pretty tragic, you know. Teenagers killed in car accidents and things like that. But it’s worse now because teenagers are allowed to drive and we have fast cars and all that. And of course when any tragedy happened, the whole community helped out….came together. And now most people have to come from far away to attend a service or anything, you know….a celebration…50-year celebration…yeah. They’ve gone. There’s hardly anybody left <laughter>. I think that’s probably about it. Oh I know it’s not, but we’ll…! Well for today. We’ll rest for today. And I thank you so, so much. I appreciate it. We’ll give you a rest and come back to you again. <laughter> I know you have so many people that you knew. And it’s true so many people don’t remember so we’re going to lose them…<can’t understand>. Thank you! � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound IIIF Collection Metadata UUID 5c855902-aef6-4cbb-bc61-7406bfa5e0aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marie Chisholm, November 29, 2003 Subject The topic of the resource Rural families; Rural schools; Education, Rural; Families--History; Mines and mineral resources Description An account of the resource Interview with Marie Chisholm about growing up in Granby, NM, coming to Colorado by steam engine, and life in Fairplay, CO. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Cara Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audiotapes; the interview consists of three audio-cassette with recordings on both sides. The digitized interview consist of six files. A transcript accompanies the recording. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-11-29 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Chisholm, Marie Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted: https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context oh_Chisholm_M_001a; oh_Chisholm_M_001b; oh_Chisholm_M_002a; oh_Chisholm_M_003a; oh_Chisholm_M_003b Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state); Park (county); Fairplay (inhabited place) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection IIIF Item Metadata UUID 1e334a5f-0c6a-4af3-b288-bdd8e59af84a https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/847e7cc53238582b21ef1199b8b5af2f.mp3 00cc05596a6a1897a047bff0de261f3e https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/c9db228a9d1c88e13e5e03d20e02280d.mp3 6515c6e9171c4a7cccc4c5af3994f50d https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/1640da1d82bce709170ceebf1090a9cb.pdf cd84c9fc24d3bcd9eb3e8a6ba46ce59b PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY – LODI ESHE Cora Doyle Interview December 17, 2003 CD: Ok, We’re ready to go. It’s been a complicated start, but this is Cara Doyle and I am here with Lodi, and is it Eshe? Is that right? LE: Eshe CD: Eshe LE: Well, that’s what we say. CD: I’ve heard it pronounced several different ways. Some pronounce it Eshe. LE: Yes, they do. Other people have but we’ve al . . . . . the Eshes said Eshe so we said Eshe. CD: Let’s see it is December 17, 2003 and we’re in Lakewood in Lodi's apartment. There is a Christmas tree sitting next to us and I guess I want to start by asking how your family got to Colorado? Where was the first kind of influence of Colorado? You mentioned homesteading, so that seems to go way back. LE: My mother’s father is supposed to have been the first white child born in Colorado. CD: What’s his name? LE: Young, Emory Young. Y-O-U-N-G. And my Uncle was treasurer in Park County many years ago. His name was William. Then my Father’s father came to Park County, well he came to Denver and they only had a quarter between them, he and his brother and they ended up in South Park and homesteaded our ranch and then the other ranch that is up there. CD: And we are looking at a picture on the wall, a beautiful photograph of the ranch. How did they know about ranching? Had they worked? Where did they come from that they knew . . . LE: They had no idea; they came from Ohio, from Cincinnati. But at that time they could come up there and they had to clear the land in some instances. Not necessarily trees but bogs. There were a lot of bogs in that area. And they made the meadow and the ranch land. CD: And this is right near Jefferson. How close are we talking to that highway there? LE: Oh we’re talking four miles from the little town of Jefferson. Between Jefferson and Como. And there is a school up there on the ranch that was called the Freemont School that was built by the ranchers around there for their children to go to school CD: Oh, when would they have homesteaded that? Do you know the year around the time? LE: No, not exactly but it was about 1870 something or early eighties. Maybe even earlier than that but I just don’t have the records. I did a DAR research but not on this grandfather who settled in Jefferson. CD: OK, OK. SO, what happened with that family? Can you tell me about how the ranch went? �LE: Well, my grandfather ranched and my father inherited the ranch. CD: Ok, What was your Dad’s name? LE: Walter Schattinger. CD: And that’s a famous name around there. LE: Yes, it’s been there a long time. And then Dare Schattinger was my brother and then my family, I married into the Esche family and that is where my name comes from, my maiden or my married name. CD: OK, can you tell me about the Schattinger ranch, just that has such a big name around there. LE: Well, I think it started out at 360 acres (Phone rings) CD: OK I started again I think we’re good. We had a phone call so we did great. You were talking about the Schattingers. LE: I told you about Peter Schattinger homesteaded the ranch, that was my grandfather. CD: Now wait, there was the Youngs. LE: Well now, the Youngs are my maternal (grand) parents who had nothing to do with the ranch. The Schattingers are the people who had the ranch. CD: OK and the grandfather was Peter? LE: Peter. CD: And how did he end up? LE: Well he’s buried up in Como. All of my family is buried up there. My grandfather Schattinger and grandmother Schattinger and then my father and mother. CD: And what was your grandmother’s name. LE: Lillian Young. CD: OK, and so they ranched. Can you tell me what their life was like? Did they tell you anything? LE: Oh, well, my grandfather told some stories but he sang to us a lot and he made up stories so I would be inclined to not verify all of the stories he told us CD: Was he a good singer? LE: Oh, they all sang, everybody sang when we went any place in the car we had no radio so we all sang. CD: Can you remember what any of the songs were? LE: Well, not right at this moment but I can surely give you a paper with all of them CD: Oh, that would be fun. I can just think of some of the old ones that my family sang like “Old Suzanna” or, oh, well, you know LE: Oh, we had some of that kind. And we had a Victrola or phonograph and we always had fairly recent records and they kept up with the modern things of that day. CD: OK, so you grandparents were on the ranch. Did you spend a lot of time there? �LE: Well, yes, until time to go to school. Then my folks bought a house in Jefferson so we kids could live in Jefferson to go to school. And then we would go back up to the ranch in the spring when they irrigated and fixed the ranch. If you’ll shut this off I’ll get that drapery closed. CD: OK, we’re back on tape. OK, so when you were little your first years were out at the ranch. LE: Yes CD: What was it like? Tell me as a little girl what was it like? LE: I can’t say anything that wasn’t pleasant because I didn’t know anything but that. And it was, I just loved it. We kids played in the yard and in the barns and drove our kiddy cars up on the roof of the barn for goodness sake. CD: What are kiddy cars? LE: Little wooden kiddy cars, you know, like a tricycle. CD: OK. You drove them off the roof? LE: Yes, into the manure pile. (Laughter) LE: And we could carry those silly tricycles back up on the edge of the logs to get up on the roof and then come on down. So we had kind of a reckless life. CD: Who were you playing with? LE: My brother and , , , CD: Dare? Your brother? LE: Dare and my sister Ruth and then I had, there were some other people who lived on another ranch which we ultimately owned CD: And who was that family? LE: Greenwells CD: OK, I’m not familiar with that name LE: Well there was Ed and Ray Greenwell who homesteaded kind of at the same time my grandfather did but I didn’t know those people CD: They moved away? But they had kids your age who would come play? LE: Some of, no they were older . . . CD: OK LE: But they would come down the way ranchers sort of visit that was the sort of thing. CD: Now were kids expected to do any chores? Did you have to help work at all? LE: Well, when we started cooking for the hay hands I got introduced to washing dishes and peeling potatoes and things like that. But we didn’t have to work. CD: That was more in the fall when you had hay season? LE: That’s when we had the haying. But as growing up, no, I didn’t have anything to do but just play. �CD: Now, what about winter things to do, was there, did they have skiing then that you guys did there? LE: No, we wore overshoes and that type of thing if we went outside to play. But I don’t think we did much playing in the heavy part of the winter. CD: Ice skating or sledding? Somehow I was thinking of kids telling me about a skating pond. LE: Well, we used to have skating parties after we moved into Jefferson. But you asked about the ranch. CD: OK, ‘cause you were kind of isolated there weren’t . . . LE: Yes. And then when we moved into town we did have skating parties every night or two. We would gather tires all summer long so we could burn them on the fire for our skating parties and we all smelled like burned rubber tires. CD: Who were your friends then? Who did you play with in town? Who lived there? LE: Oh, well there was Sanburn kids and the Wright boys and Florence and Jim Head and Jeannie and, CD: That’s Jean Head Howie that we talked about earlier LE: Yes, but there weren’t that many kids in school or in town at that time CD: Huh, what was school like? LE: We just had reading and writing and arithmetic and as I progressed, I was pretty much the oldest at that time, and as I progressed then I could hear the first graders read and the second graders, that type of thing. CD: So you would kind of help them, the older kids would help them? LE:I helped the teachers, uh huh, because they didn’t have that much. They had a lot of kids and a lot of grades but no help. CD: OK, was this a one room school? LE: a one room school in Jefferson which is now our church or community church. Then we built a hall so we could play basketball and we had good girl teams and good boy teams but the girls would have to play boys rules to practice and then the boys would have to play girls rules to practice. There were differences in the rules and the boy’s rules were much more fun. CD: That’s funny because Marie Chisholm was just telling me that. LE: who was?CD: Marie Chisholm was just telling me about the different rules. She didn’t like that so much. LE: it was terrible. You know you had a three court system and the ball had to go from the forward court to the center court to the guard court or wherever the ball was supposed to be, you had to pass it through the center court. I was short, not very tall, and you had to be kind of tall to play basketball and I was the little running center and I tell you, you went from one end to the other. CD: I didn’t ask you, when were you born? LE: 1916. January 8, 1916. CD: OK so you have a birthday coming up LE: um hum �CD: So when you were in the Jefferson school, trying to get the time ‘cause it seems like the sports kind of for girls changed before the war and after the war. I get kind of different stories from people. LE: Well, see I wasn’t there during the war. My husband and I were in Los Angeles and I wasn’t playing basketball so I don’t know just when the rules changed. CD: so this would have been in the twenties and early thirties? LE: No, in the early forties. I was in the first grade in the twenties. CD: at the Jefferson school? OK. LE and then I graduated from high school in 1934. CD: OK. LE: then I went to Barnes Business College and graduated from Barnes in, oh, my goodness, I don’t remember. 1937 I think. CD: Where was Barnes?LE: Barnes was a business school in Denver and I came to Denver and went to Barnes Business School. And they always placed people for employment after they had finished school. So . . . CD: So did you get placed? LE: Oh, I was placed in the first job was in a garage and I didn’t like that at all and so I found my own job after that and then I went back up and was to Jefferson and was the assistant director of welfare and the old age pension and Social Security came out. CD: Oh, tell me about that. That must have been a pretty big deal. LE: Well, it was kind of fun. We had to go down to meet the people, down in Elkhorn and Hartsell and Garo and Duffy. CD: You mean people signing up for the program? LE: where they were signing up for old age pension and Social Security. CD: Oh . . And what were there qualifications they had to have or what did they . . .? LE: Oh, they had to be a certain age and then I think there was a financial background of how much money they had made in previous years. Primarily I think we did what you are doing, researched their history so we could have it on record for the Social Security and old age pension. CD: So, where was your office located. LE: Well, it was in Fairplay. The first one was in what I think is now a bar or a restaurant and then they built the white building, I don’t know whether it is still white. It had an upstairs and that is where our welfare and Social Security offices were and there were some other offices downstairs participating in the county. CD: What street was that on, do you remember? LE: I have no idea, I don’t know if the streets were even named at that time. CD: What year would this have been, do you remember? LE: Oh, 35 and 36; 34 was when they began the Social Security and old age pension. CD: and this was a job that you found . . . LE: Well, they had a real director and then I was assistant director. �CD: Who was the director then? LE: I can’t, Barcelmae? I can’t tell you his first name. CD: What was Fairplay like then? LE: Just about like it is now. CD: Yeah? LE: There hasn’t been a whole lot, well . . . there are some more houses up Beaver Creek and up Sacramento and that area but in town there weren’t that many CD: um, you remember where you got groceries or what, where LE: Ascott was the grocer and Prokoff CD: OK LE: and we did most of our grocery shopping there. It was kind of on a daily basis. It was sort of a meeting place. Can you shut that off. I’ll go get a drink of water. CD: Ok, we’re back, we’re talking about Fairplay. LE: My husband and I lived in what was called Gees’ house, up on the hill going up Beaver Creek I think. It is a white house but it looks like it is in disrepair right now. It was quite a large house and we had kind of a basement apartment. CD: You don’t remember who owned it? LE: Yes, Mr. Gee, I can’t, he was an attorney. I think maybe he was our District Attorney. CD: Do you remember what you paid for rent? LE: Fifteen dollars CD: $15 dollars a month? LE: um hum CD: we’re kind of jumping around because, let’s see, who were you married to? LE: Who was I married to? CD: Who were you married to? Yes, because you just mentioned your husband and we didn’t talk . LE: Richard Eshe CD: OK, tell me about Richard, how did you meet him. LE: I guess I just knew him from ever, from school you know. And then his father worked for my grandfather. You know I told you about the Eshes getting into Park County and Frank had worked for my grandfather and he was married to Swanee Hymer whose parents lived up there, no they lived more in Tiny Town, but when she and Frank were married they lived in Como, at the Eight Mile Ranch if you know where that is. CD: The Eight Mile Ranch, that was there was the Eshes lived? LE: That was their ranch. CD: So when you say you went to school with him was that at the Jefferson school? LE: No, Como had their own school and Jefferson had their school and we just met for basketball games and school parties and that sort of thing. �CD: So he was in Como at the school. OK and were you about the same age. LE: He was three years older than I. CD: and so, when did you first go out? LE: well on my 16th birthday my parents finally decided I was old enough to go out and I went out with Richard. CD: And, had he asked you for your birthday? LE: Oh, no. No, we were kids growing up, you know. We were good dancers and we danced together a lot so that had something to do with it. CD: So what did you do for your sixteenth birthday? LE: They had a birthday party. Cake and ice cream and blindfolded games, you know. That type of thing. CD: at your house was this at the ranch? LE: No, at mother and daddy’s house in Jefferson. CD: In Jefferson. OK, where was the house? LE: It’s still there, it is about a block from the school, the school house. And two houses back of the grocery store. So that will tell you how small it was. CD: Tell me what the house was like. LE: It was two bedrooms and a living room and dining room like this and it was, I mean, in size it was about this size, the living room and dining room, we used to feed the hay hands there after we left the ranch so it was a pretty good size. CD: Two bedrooms but you say there were three kids, there were three of you? LE: Right, two girls and a boy. CD: So how did the rooms work. Did you and your sister share a room, I’m guessing? And then where did your brother stay? LE: He stayed with neighbors next door who had a spare bedroom and he could just go into the bedroom from the outside. CD: OK, who was the oldest? LE: I’m the oldest CD: You’re the oldest. LE: Dare was born in, I was born in 1916 and he was born in February of 1917 and my sister was born in July of 1918. CD: OK, all right in a row, all in a row you guys were. LE: um hum CD: And what did your folks do when you were little, what were your parents doing? LE: I don’t know. My Dad lived on the ranch and my Mother’s parents lived in Pueblo and Wyoming and she went to school in Wyoming for two or three years and came back and went to school in Pueblo. She was a telephone operator when she was very young. Oh, I think they probably started about 15 or 16 years old. CD: Working? And that would have been in Pueblo? �LE: um hum CD: OK and that family name again was, she was the LE: Young\ CD: The Young family. And then your Dad was raised on the ranch, Schattinger ranch. And when you were growing up he was still helping the folks, that was the family business/ LE: Well, he was buying the ranch from grandfather and then grandfather bought another ranch kind of over at the foot of Kenosha and we called that the Baker place, I think they must have purchased it from Baker’s but I don’t know for sure. CD: Can you tell me what they had on the ranch? I’m guessing that they raised cattle? LE: Oh, some cattle and horses and hay. Just a typical South Park ranch, no sheep, we didn’t have any sheep. CD: I guess I’m asking about that just because you know how much it has changed and so for like your kids understand a normal ranch I’m not sure they will know what a normal ranch is like in the South Park. What was that? LE: Almost what it is now. It hasn’t changed that much. CD: OK. You were raising hay. Where was it sold to? Do you know where they sold the hay? W LE: Well, we sold ours to the stock yards. CD: In Denver? LE: In Denver. And it went down on the train for a long time and then Daddy bought trucks and he hauled the hay and sold it and added the freight to it. That was additional income. CD: OK. And is that how the big family trucking business got started. I’m told there is a whole family trucking business. LE: Well, that’s what the Schattinger part was. Then Richard and I were married and went to Los Angeles during the war. CD: When were you married? How old were you? LE: I was twenty one or two, I was married in 1937, August 19, 1937. CD: Where did you get married? LE: In Mother’s and Dad’s house in Jefferson. CD: Who was there, who did you invite? LE: Oh, the whole town. You don’t . . . CD: You have to, that’s what you’re saying? LE: You have to have everybody. And so, I don’t know, there were probably fifty people and we had a reception, they didn’t have weddings at that time. Kids ran away and got married. CD: I’ve had a lot of people who told me they got married in (New) Mexico and I wondered why. LE: Went to Mexico? �CD: Went to New Mexico to get married . . . LE: I think maybe that was true. CD: But you got married right there? Who married you? LE: What? CD: Who married you? LE: No, but he was late getting to the wedding and I thought somebody paid him off you know. (Laughter) LE: No, I can’t tell you what his name . CD: Would it be someone from the church or would it be more like a Justice of the Peace? LE: No, he was from the church. What was the church at Jefferson at that time. CD: OK LE: But he got there, finally got there. And then they had the reception in that little hall, where the town hall is now but it was a different building then. And then we went on a honeymoon down to Gunnison and Durango. CD: Did you go camping or did you stay at hotels? LE: No, we stayed in hotels. My goodness, that was the first wedding that had been in Jefferson in years so it was kind of different. CD: uh huh. It sounds nice. And then, what did you do? What kind of work were you doing? LE: My husband was working at the South London mine and then . . . CD: What did he do there? LE: He worked on the sorting belt. He sorted the good ore from the bad ore but I don’t know much more about it than that. CD: Did he tell you much about the South London, what it was like or? LE: I’ve been in the South London. CD: Tell me about it. LE: God’s sakes, it’s a hole in the ground with shafts. CD: It doesn’t sound very romantic. (Laughter) LE: Goodness no! There’s nothing to tell you the South London mine. CD: NO? LE: Nothing historical. CD: Did he like the work? LE: Well, you worked where you could get a job and get paid so you didn’t necessarily like it and he was working for the C&S Railroad in Denver and then while he was doing that he was hired in Los Angeles and then he moved from Denver to Jefferson to Los Angeles. CD: that must have been a huge change? LE: It was a change. �CD: Did you like it? LE: Not really. But you know, you live in a small community like Jefferson and then go to Los Angeles it seemed a forever thing. CD: Kind of scary and exciting. It would be. LE: What? CD: Kind of scary and exciting, both. LE: Well, we didn’t get our car out there for, oh, six or eight weeks. And after I got my car I did a lot of things. I would go to the ocean and the beach and take Janice and that type of things. CD: Janice, was that you first . . . LE: That’s my daughter. CD: OK, how old was she then? When did you have Janice? LE: Oh, she was about three, two and a half, about three. CD: Did you have her in Jefferson or when you got to Los Angeles? LE: Well, she was born in CD: More company CD: (After break) OK Lody’s got a busy life here. We’re stopping the tapes. We were talking I think when Janice was born you were out in Los Angeles and I was trying to clarify LE: No, Janice was born in Greeley CD: Oh, in Greeley LE: In Greeley. And then we went to Los Angeles when she was about two years old. CD: I missed when you were living in Greeley. LE: We didn’t live there. My uncle was my doctor and he was in Greeley so I went up there to have my baby. CD: What was your uncle’s name? LE: Haskill, Earl Haskill CD: And was he close to the family?LE: No, not really CD: But he was a doctor LE: When he found out I was pregnant he came up to the ranch and erase that CD: You want me to erase this part? LE: Yeah CD: So Janice was born in Greeley? But you were living still in Jefferson at that time? LE: um hum CD: And then you headed out to Los Angeles? LE: And then we went to Los Angeles CD: What was life like there? �LE: Awful. Richard worked long hours on the railroad and we settled in a Jewish community and I didn’t, wasn’t familiar with Jewish people and I wasn’t familiar with their accent so I really had kind of a hard time getting acquainted, but they were very good to me and we were just across the street from Seventh Day Adventist hospital and I used to go over there and roll bandages and things for the war effort. CD: OK. How did the war change things. You were volunteering. Did it change other things was it hard to get supplies for you? Did you, was it? LE: If you had the food stamps you were fine. And we had to have unlimited gasoline because gasoline was rationed and we had unlimited gasoline because Richard was on the railroad and had to get that. So I could take people anywhere I could go. And I was not about to stay there and not learn what it was all about or not drive in the Los Angeles traffic or anything. I just went. CD: So you went exploring? And besides the beach where else did you go? You went to the beach, where else did you go? LE: Oh, we went to Santa Monica and Richard worked in San Diego and San Bernardino. We Stayed in San Bernardino for about six weeks when we first got, no, not San Bernardino, well that will do for a bit of work but that is not where it was, we were down on the ocean. Oceanside is where we were. And I like that, so that was better. CD: Sounds like quite an adventure. So what happened from there, where did you go after Los Angeles. Did you stay there a long time? LE: No, well we stayed there for eight or, oh in that area, for eight or ten years and then came back to Colorado and bought South Park Motor Lines. CD: What brought you back?LE: Well, my husband was color blind. During the war it didn’t make any difference but after the war was over they sort of changed some rules and regulations. New presidents. New departments of transportation that sort of thing. CD: So he had to look for some different work. LE: Yes, so we came out and bought the truck line. CD: Why the truck line? LE: Well, because we knew transportation. CD: OK LE: and it was available CD: So where did you settle then? LE: In Denver. CD: What kind of neighborhood, tell me where you settled in Denver? LE: Eastern part of Denver. And then we moved to (?) community out, oh, I can’t think of it CD: That’s OK, it will come back. I’m asking you so many different things. Now we talked about Janice. Were there other kids coming along at that time? LE: I only had two CD: Two kids, OK LE: Had Janice and Rick CD: When was Rick born? �LE: He was born in 1942, 43. CD: So you were probably still out in Colorado at that time? LE: No, we were here. CD: You were back here already. LE: Well no, CD: Thinking from when the war ended LE: That was in the forties and fifties. Rick was born in 1952. CD: OK, ‘52, so you would have been back. What was Denver like then? LE: Just like it is now or very similar. CD: hum? LE: There hasn’t been any big change. I’m 88, but in so far as there being any big change in your standard of living or the way you lived, or the things you did there it has not been that different. CD: Hum, that surprises me. LE: Why? CD: That you’d say that. Oh, because most people seem to think that the growth is kind of overwhelming here and this doesn’t seem to faze you one little bit. LE: Not one bit. Well, if you live in Los Angeles and Alhambra, and South Pasadena for ten years the change in Jefferson is miniscule. CD: That’s probably true. (Laughter)> Let’s see, do you have grandkids, you must ‘cause I’m seeing pictures all over of little ones. LE: I have, there’s a picture of my husband there’s Dick and John and Dick and John and their mother and this is Suzanne. CD: OK. Now Dick and John were? LE: My daughter’s sons. CD: OK. And then does your son have kids also? LE: He has Suzanne CD: Suzanne? OK. Just checking. CD: Tell me what your husband was like. I didn’t get to meet him. Tell me about him. LE: Well, CD: He sounds like a hard worker. LE: Yes, and he looked like, my son looks like him. And he died when we had the truck line and I just went on with the truck line and bought other trucks lines. CD: And how on earth did you know what to do with the truck line? Was this a business you did together? LE: No, if I needed to learn something I learned it. I got a degree in transportation in Opportunity School and I went there at night. CD: When was this? �LE: Here in Denver. CD: What kind of year, do you remember when this was? LE: You’re making me go back, way CD: You don’t have to remember. Now, was your husband, already passed away when you did this or was this when he was alive? LE: Well he was still living and then CD: What was Opportunity School? LE: What? CD: Is that just the name of the school or is that a type of school? LE Opportunity School was a school organized by a single lady who found the lack of education in young people and so she organized a school and got kids going. CD: How neat. Is that kind of like a technical school? LE: Well, I took the business end of it. I took the accounting and the billing and the typing and the shorthand and all that sort of thing. CD: OK. And you learned about transportation. LE: Well, I was in transportation when I did that. CD: OK LE: And I attended everything they had with it. And you learned quickly when you were under the supervision of the public utilities and the interstate commerce commission. You had reams of things that you had to learn. CD: So did you and your husband run the business together? LE: um hum. And then I also worked for other companies and managed their companies and did yours at night. It was, a learning experience that’s for sure. CD: This is while the kids were growing up. You folks were running the trucking company. OK CD: What kind of personality did your husband have? Was he quiet or outgoing or what was he like, what kind of guy? LE: No, he was, well, he was outgoing with the customers up in the Fairplay area, but he wouldn’t do much with working with people in Denver or driving tractors and trailers or anything. He wouldn’t have a thing to do with that. He would drive the bobtails or the small trucks and he would deliver the freight but he didn’t like all the other things. CD: OK. And who were the customers up in Jefferson area, when you talk about the customers up there, who would they be? LE: Like, who the people are now? That’s the same people? CD: Grocery store or ranches or? LE: What’s in Jefferson? There’s not a darn thing but the grocery store and the filling station. So that’s who we delivered to in Jefferson. We did the same thing in Como. We did the same thing in Fairplay. The whole county, Park County, has not developed the way people say it has developed not the way I know development and having worked with it. CD: You mean in terms of like business opportunities. �LE: Yes, and, well, you could. Well, I just can’t explain it to you. It has not grown, there is not much to elaborate. CD: You mean kind of like economic development are you referring to mostly? LE: That’s what you’re referring to. Uh, . . . well it was ranches, just as it is now. And of course there has been some housing development up on Michigan hill and some of those things but there has been no gross development. CD: Why do you think? LE: Well would you want to live in South Park. You may want to erase some of this because it is getting pretty damn . . . CD: Well I think it’s honest. I’ve heard that from other folks particularly around Jefferson for some reason more so than I’ve heard in other towns up there. LE: What do you hear around Garo and Hartsel, and Elkhorn? CD: See I haven’t talked to folks around there LE Tarryall ‘ LE: It isn’t there CD: So you think it is more like lifestyle. Not, it’s not politics it isn’t LE: No it is none of those things. People go up there and live in the summertime but they drive back and forth to Denver or wherever they are working CD: It is a lot tougher I think a life than people realize. LE: Oh, heavens yes. You know. CD: What would you like your grandkids to know about life when you were growing up there? LE: Well, they know how we went to school, they know how we lived at the ranch. They go up there and do the same things we’re doing right now. There has not been that kind of change. CD: Did you ride horses up there? LE: I think I said we had horses and we had burros and we had buggies and we did those kind of things in the summer time. We roller skated, ice skated in the winter time. And then we just grew up. CD: Did you travel much? Did you come to the city very often or did you pretty much just stay? LE: Oh no, we came to town frequently and I was going to school down here and I would, Daddy would come with a load of hay and I would come home for the weekend. And Richard was working at the mine and he would bring me back down to Denver, so it was. I keep telling you it was not an exciting period. I don’t know what more I can say. CD: That’s fine. Was money ever an issue or was your family OK? I mean you had enough food and you could get clothing and medical care. LE: We had no problems, we had the same problems everybody had. There was a depression and we bought groceries in Denver and we cooked for hay hands as I have explained. CD: Where did the hay hands come from?LE: All over, Denver, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas. �CD: So did they travel in groups to get this work? LE: You may have picked ‘em up, I can’t even tell you. Most of ‘em were people, neighbors who had worked for us in years before, that sort of thing. CD: Holidays, what did you do for the holidays? LE: Just what we’re doing now. We celebrated. We had Christmas trees. We went out and cut our own Christmas trees and that to me was a greater part of Christmas and we opened our Christmas gifts just like we do now, I’m telling you there is no change. CD: (Laughter) I’m just trying to get what your family traditions were. LE: Well we did just what I’m telling you. CD: Did you take the buggy out to go get the Christmas tree? Or did you take horses or did you hike somewhere on the ranch?LE: No, we had trucks. We went in trucks up to the ranch. This tree came from the ranch. CD: OK, it’s beautiful. And then did other relatives come to visit you at the ranch or was it more of a small family gathering. LE: It was a community gathering. CD: OK Lody, thank you so much for taking this time with me today. I really appreciate it and I enjoyed learning a little more about your family and thank you so much ## � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound IIIF Collection Metadata UUID 5c855902-aef6-4cbb-bc61-7406bfa5e0aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lodi Eshe on December 17, 2003 Subject The topic of the resource Homesteading; Families – History; Ranching Description An account of the resource Interview with Lodi Eshe discussing the Schattinger family, growing up in Jefferson, Colorado, working in Fairplay, Colorado, getting married and her husband's time working in the South London mine Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Cara Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audiotapes; Oral history interview recorded on audio tape; The interview consists of one audio-cassette with recordings on both sides of the tape. The digitized interview consist of two files. A transcript does accompany the recording. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-12-17 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Eshe, Lodi Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted: https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp5 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context oh_Eshe_L_01a; oh_Eshe_L_01b Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state); Park (county); Jefferson (inhabited place) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection IIIF Item Metadata UUID d380882c-a36d-429a-9d15-68d62e35a450 Homesteading Jefferson