https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/3d2af54ef50a91eee49b84e64a7f3abc.pdf 6e85d9f9074775144587b1bad618e75a PDF Text Text Karen Denison Interviewed August 27, 2002 by Cara Doyle Side 1 This is Cara Doyle. I’m here with Karen Denison who is squishing time in for me to talk to her on her lunch break. So we may pause in between for phone calls. But Karen works in the Assessor’s Office in Park County. So I thank you for joining me. Let me start with asking where you were born. I was born in Salida, Colorado, at the hospital. My parents lived on a ranch twelve miles south of Fairplay, just a little west of what’s known as Twin Bridges. How long had they lived there? My parents had lived there since 1941. My father had lived there since about 1939. The place had belonged to his grandparents--his mother’s parents, which they purchased it back in 1930. Oh, goes way back. Can you tell me about them? How did they land here in Colorado? Were they from here? My grandmother’s parents were married in Sweden. The husband came to Cheyenne, Wyoming, to join his brother to work on the railroad. I can’t remember the years, I think it was about four years before he saved up enough money to bring Esther’s mother and one brother, George, to the United States to join him. After they came here he worked for the railroad in Cheyenne, in Smeltertown in Denver. There was another community there, but right off the top of my head I can’t tell you the name of it. It’s non-existent any more. He wanted to return to the railroad and the only opening left available to him was Garo, Colorado, which they thought was the end of the earth. So they moved to Garo… When are we talking, what timeline are we in? Um, they moved to Garo around 1903 or thereabouts, I believe. Somewhere around 1900. After they moved…well, no, I take that back because they had one son born at Garo in 1899 shortly after they got up here. So they came here about 1888, something like that. What was Garo at that time? Do you have any idea what kind of town it was, or the size? It was quite a going concern, they had several homes which were basically little log shacks. They had a store, train station. Because Garo was the hub for the railroad at that time. One branch came in from Denver, went to Garo, then the spur left Garo to go to Fairplay. And then from there it went south down through Trout Creek to Buena Vista. Logging was a primary interest. It was a big concern because they needed ties for the railroads; they needed lumber for building, that kind of stuff. So it was a big shipping center. Bringing supplies in to Garo to be put on a spur train to take to Fairplay. Shipping ties to Fairplay for the mines. Lumber for building, etcetera. That’s how my grandmother met her soon-to-be husband, was in Garo, because he and his brother had set up a logging camp outside of Garo. They had some on Buffalo Peaks and they had one at Garo where they brought ties into the town of Garo. So how did they meet? What was she doing? She was basically living at home with her parents. And they’re the ones who had come in to work for the railroad. No, her parents came in to work for the railroad. Her husband and his brother set up the logging camp and that’s how they met. What are their names? Her name was Esther. And her parents’ names were Johanna and John Johnson. And John Johnson had worked for the railroad and then he’d leased a place from Mrs. Garo and did some ranching when he quit the railroad again. And they stayed in the park until he died, about 1932, I believe. When Esther and Eric came back from Breckenridge and took over the ranch at that �time. They had owned what is now known as the Sweetwater Ranch, or the Sweet Ranch. They had lived over at the foot of Kenosha on the Case place. They had lived at several other places in the park. What brought them up here? Ranching. And what about Breckenridge? How did that tie in? My grandparents, Esther and Eric, after they were married, continued to log and live in Garo. Then in 1915, thereabouts, they moved to Fairplay. They had logging camps at Break(?) Pass, one on Silverheels, and then they built another one over by Jefferson in 1917. Kept it a short time and then moved their entire logging operation over on the Swan at Breckenridge, at what is known as Tiger. What you call the Swan, what is that? The Swan is a valley that goes from Breckenridge back up and basically tops out at Georgia Pass. And there was a town, a little berg over there called Tiger. And that’s where they moved their logging operation. Do you know anything about what Breckenridge was at that point? A very small mining town. My father went to school over there, graduated from high school over there. And then came back over here to work in the mines. What was your dad’s name? Leonard. Did he talk about Breckenridge at that time? He talked about Breckenridge off and on throughout his life, yah. As to some of the things the kids pulled, and pranks and snow, and… Like what? Did you have any favorites? What kind of a prank would he pull? He wasn’t among the pranksters, although they did go, him and a group of the senior boys went into a mine. Tragically went into one of the old mines over there, and I believe one of the students was injured and later died from an injury. But they, everywhere they went in the wintertime they traveled on snowshoes or skis. Horseback or foot in the summer. What was the school like? Was it a big school or was it a one-room school house? No, it was a little bit bigger. There were first grade through twelve at that time. The high school was separate from the grade school. There was enough kids to go to school there. Do you have any idea where the school was related to where things are now? The school, I believe, is still in existence over there. The building. And I believe it’s part of what used to be the court house or something. I don’t know. I’ve lost touch with Breckenridge because I don’t like to go over there. That’s why I’m kind of curious from your perspective. But we can get more to what you remember growing up. So, they came back…this is your…I’m losing track of generations…your grandfather that came back to Fairplay, or no, it was your father that came back. Well, he came back to work in the mines. And basically was on his own at that time. And in about 1932…I can’t remember the year. It was either ’32 or ’36. My grandmother Esther and Eric came back from Breckenridge—I take that back—they came back in ’36. And why did they come back? Because her father, John Johnson, died. And they came back to take over the ranch. �And he was ranching here at what you mentioned was the Sweet? Well, he had lived first of all on the Sweet, Sweet Ranch. Then he moved over to the Case place at the foot of Kenosha. Then they came back and bought the place there west of Twin Bridges. Johanna and John ranched that until he died around 1936. Then Esther and Eric came back to run the place. My father helped him intermittently and then my grandfather Eric died in 1939. And so my dad moved to the ranch to help Esther take care of it. Was that something he wanted to do, did he want to ranch or was his heart in mining? He enjoyed ranching. He enjoyed working outdoors; he enjoyed being outdoors. Mining was an interest because he’d always been interested in geology. There’s a lot of things to interplay and stuff we won’t get into. But he met my mother in 1941. Who’s your mom? Her name was Fern. She went by the name Fern. He met her at a dance in Hartsel which is where he was playing music. Music was his first love. What did he play? He played the accordion; he played the piano. He played by ear. And had been involved with bands for most of the 30s. Any bands we’d know that he played with? No. He was just local. Did they have a local band name, did they have a name they went by? They didn’t go by a name. And where was it in Hartsel that they played? The Hartsel Hotel. Which of course burned. And where is that? Well, right now the Badger Springs store and Bayou Salado sit there where the hotel used to be. And my father met my mother there. And they were married on New Year’s Eve. Was it a big wedding? No, it was just the two of them. Where did they get married? In New Mexico. They eloped. Was there a reason for that? Did the family disapprove or anything like that? Or was it just something that they just wanted to do things simply? Basically make things simply. His mother was not in favor of the marriage, and there was a battle. And so they weren’t going that route. Now where was your mom at that time? When they met, where was she living? She was working in Hartsel. Her parents had been living out in Trump for a number of years. Where’s Trump. South of Hartsel. About twenty miles. It used to be a post office and a schoolhouse and a store. What did they do there? They were ranching. That area has a unique history in itself. But anyway… �We’re going to make Karen talk again, but not today. She has all kinds of stories, I can just tell by her twinkle. So they were ranching. What was your mom doing in Hartsel, where was she working? She worked at the Hartsel Hotel. Doing what? Working in the kitchen, cleaning rooms, just about anything that needed to be done in the hotel because she worked ??? She had worked for other ranches, helping them cook for hay crews. Take care of children. Just whatever it was they needed done, so she had been working there most of her teen life. So how soon did they marry after they met? Probably a year. Then where did they settle? They settled at the ranch south of Fairplay. Is there a name for that ranch? Well, people know it today as the Arrowhead. Arrowhead. But they didn’t call it that then? No. They didn’t go for big fancy names on ranches at that time. It was not the ‘in’ thing to do. It was known by the people who lived there. How big was the ranch then? Oh, gosh, I can’t remember. It was probably around two thousand acres. How did that compare in size to most ranches in the area then? Moderate. Medium size. Can you tell me what they had on the ranch in terms of animals or crops? They raised cattle. They raised a few horses. They raised hay. My dad was instrumental in bringing in some new types of grasses. Timothy and clover were two that did really well. They tried inter-seeding. He raised rye. He raised barley. He raised potatoes. He enjoyed trying to expand on what he could raise and what he could do. Because they also tried to provide their own food. They had a small garden and they raised potatoes and anything that kind of provided the food supply. Where did he get this knowledge? Reading. He probably would be playing around with. The primary part of it. We’ll have to jump to when all of you came along. How many children were there and where were you in the lineup? In the lineup I would be probably the second or middle child. I had a set of twin brothers that were born a little over a year before me that died at birth. And then I came along and my brother came along about five years later. Can you tell me some of your earlier memories of the ranch, as a child? Oh, I loved the animals. We had work horses. We had saddle horses. We had dogs, cats, sheep, pigs, chickens. There was just a lot of stuff. It was very fond memories of being a good time. What was fun? Playing with the animals. �Did you play games? Did you have to do chores? We left the ranch when I was about five and a half. So I really didn’t get into the chores other than I liked to feed the cats, and the dogs, and help bottle-feed any of the babies, calves, or the bottle-lambs or whatever we happened to have. But really didn’t get into the chores until later in life. Can you tell me anything about the house? The house was a big log house. It still stands out there. How old is it now? It was probably built somewhere around the turn of the century. Is it a big house? A big house, in terms of square feet. How was it heated? Wood. At that time. And if I remember right, they did put in a couple of oil heaters. We had a wood kitchen stove and I think we had an oil heater in the living room. Do you remember winters being comfortable. Was it warm enough? I don’t ever remember being really cold. We didn’t have electricity. We had gas lines. And I remember the old crank telephone and things like that. Now was that where you’d call and the operator would answer and hook you up? Oh, yes. Do you remember your number? No, I don’t remember what ours was. I just remember that you cranked the phone and got the operator’s attention and then told her who you wanted. And she would, according to what their call was, it would be one long and two shorts or three longs or one long and two shorts and another long, or however it was the way they went by. The rings was different who was supposed to answer. Did you have much family living around you at that time? Was there extended family living nearby? My grandmother, my dad’s mother, lived in Fairplay at that time. She moved from the ranch just before my twin brothers were born. So that they could have the big house. Her mother already lived in Fairplay. Where did they live? Johanna lived down…well let’s see what sits there now…in behind what used to be the gas station there across from the Friendship Inn. There was a little gray house which now was moved up to a lot in town from that location. It’s kind of the back end of what is now the Western Inn. She had a little house there. It was in behind Art’s garage and out of his wife and sons??? You said your great-grandma lived in town and your grandma. Did they live together, then? No. My great-grandmother lived in behind Art’s garage and my grandmother lived at the location on Front Street. The last person that I knew of that owned the house were the Zachs. But they built a new house there where her house used to be. Her house blew up. How? From a propane heater. In the late ‘60s. Do you remember any talk when you were young about the depression? �Oh, yah. My mother grew up in the depression. And they were affected tremendously by it. They moved quite a bit trying to find work, trying to feed the family and stuff. And she remembers the depression very well. The things that they ate. Cabbage leaves with sour milk on them made into a sandwich. That was one of them. Or they would eat cabbage leaves smeared with bacon grease as a sandwich. Ate a lot of cabbage, ate a lot of potatoes, ate a lot of garden foods. Because they originally, before they moved to the park, had lived in southeastern Colorado. And they could raise a lot of stuff. They had that knowledge. Well they had that knowledge. And if you didn’t grow it you didn’t eat it. I mean, you just didn’t have money to buy it and it wasn’t available. So they grew up raising a garden and that kind of stuff. Was it different then to have a garden here? In terms of moisture or temperature? Probably not so much in temperature. If anything it might have been a little bit colder. But there was more water. There was a lot more water. They were irrigating the meadows so the streams never dried up. They had a continuous feed back into the creeks and stuff, which now we don’t have anymore. My father, when he was a child, remembered talking to an old man who had been a trapper in the park when he was a young man. And he said he remembered when the streams would go dry in the winter because, of course there was no meadows. And there was only a few beaver dams and stuff because they trapped beaver very heavily. So the streams would go dry in the winter and there were no fish. And things like that, you know, that lived in the streams and stuff they would hole up in beaver dams or something, they wanted to be the ones that survived. And then after they began irrigating the park, the streams never went dry in the winter. There was water available for livestock. People’s wells were more dependable. The water table stayed pretty full. Because of the irrigation they got more summer rain—because water begets water. I think the snow cycles are different and most of the people that I’ve talked to seem to think so because they used to get a lot of snow but then it would run off. And it would be gone. You know back around the turn of the century, late 1800s, whatever. There was nothing keep it here. Once they began irrigating and building up the meadows and stuff they still got the snow, but it seemed to stay. And of course the meadows then fed back to the streams on water, so like I said, they had livestock water, that kind of stuff, which we don’t have now. I guess everything goes back, or everything goes around. It’s very sad to see. Growing up the park was ranches. How did that look? Gorgeous. It was lush. Come over the top of Kenosha Pass, for instance. You would look down on Jefferson, which was just a sea of meadows. And like even in July. The grass was deep, it was deep green. It was lush. It was tall; it would wave in the wind. And then of course in August you’d see haying and stuff going on. But the country, because everything was much greener. It was much more, if you’d want to call it productive. There were ranches all the way from Jefferson to Fairplay. All of those ranches, almost every one of them employed at least one family, and sometimes two or three families or hired men. Basically most of them had families. There was a school in Jefferson; there was a school in Como. As they began bussing then most people they migrated and condensed the school districts to Fairplay. Hartsel Ranch employed a lot of people up until the early 60s before that sold out to become a subdivision. There were a lot more kids in school. It fluctuated up and down, but it was more of a family community, more stable. Fairplay at one time had, when I was growing up, this was during my time, we had a full-time pharmacy. We had three full time grocery stores. We had, besides the grocery stores, two of which provided clothing, we had another clothing store, sometimes two more. We had three car dealerships, six or seven gas stations, a theatre, a bowling alley, uh… Quite a few bars from what I heard. We had one, two, three, four. There were probably four bars in Fairplay. People tell me about this fabulous variety store. �Well the variety store was one of the clothing stores. You could buy just about anything you’d want from buttons and thread and embroidery thread to jeans and work shirts and boots and sewing notions and craft notions. We call them crafts now; at that time it was necessities. Then we have to say it’s 2002 and we cannot get these things here. Well, and the sad part about it is, I understand that if things don’t change we may be losing our pharmacy again. And I don’t want to see that happen. The car dealerships were all repair shops, most of them had gas as well as…you know it was a full-fledged garage. They did repairs, they did body work, they sold gas, they had cars for sale. It was kind of a unique setup. A little bit of everything involved with the automobile. We had two equipment, farm equipment, dealerships in the park. Hartsel had a car dealership an equipment dealership, a grocery store, a café, a hotel, another gas station—service station, repairs, that kind of stuff. Actually there was two other gas stations and both did repairs as well, besides the car dealership. And that was just Hartsel. I didn’t know too much about Alma because we didn’t go up there. Jefferson had a grocery store, gas station, a restaurant and a motel. The community building had, there was two or three, at least three, local volunteer basketball teams, baseball teams, that kind of stuff, in the community. What about Como? Como had three gas stations at one time, two grocery stores, they had a couple of saloons at one time. Of course the hotel…when the train was running up until 1938, they had all of the things associated with the train station. And after that died out Como really died out. You said you were living on the ranch only until you were about five. Where did you go then? We--from there we moved to Fairplay. Do you know why? Because my grandmother wanted to play sulk. That must have been a tough transition. My father went to work, he went back to work in the mines for a while then he worked a couple of ranch jobs, then he worked for the Park County Road & Bridge. So grandma owned the ranch and your folks were running it for her. So where did you live in Fairplay? 580 Castello. And then you went to the Fairplay School? What was the school like then? Had they consolidated yet? Somewhat, yah. Can you tell me about the school at all? How many kids were there. I couldn’t give you numbers or statistics. Most of the time I would see we ran anywhere from fifteen to thirty students per class per grade. And the teachers first through eighth grade taught two classes. First and second. Third and fourth. Fifth and sixth. Seventh and eighth. Could you name any of the teachers? Oh, yah. Edith Teter. Cora Osbourne. Side 2 We’re talking about other teachers. The names that you’re mentioning are still names that are pretty well-known in this community. Most of the teachers that were outstanding teachers and stuff stayed here. There were a lot of other teachers who, they came and they went. I mean they were here for a year, maybe two years, and they were gone. Nobody outstanding that I can pick out. �What did kids do for fun during that time? In the summertime you fished, you hiked, explored. In the wintertime ice skating, sledding. I like to read, so books. You know, there was a lot of books. Television wasn’t a big thing until in the fifties. What about the movies? We got to go to a movie once in a while, because the theatre was still here. Do you remember how much it cost to go to a movie? Well, at one time it was a quarter for kids. And I think it was seventy-five cents or something for adults. They usually ran two shows a week. Any famous movies you remember from that time? Famous movie stars? No. The movie stars would have been Liz Taylor, Debbie Reynolds. Oh, gosh, John Wayne. What was it like in terms of your father mining at that time? Do you remember the mining camps or what was going on in that sense? Well he would drive to the mines and stuff and work when they were open. He and a couple of other guys would come up on their own, doing their thing and stuff, trying to make some money at it. It was not very profitable. Any mines that we’d recognize that he worked at? He worked for while at the London. They had that for a while and stopped ??? That was one of them the probably where he was at. Do you remember him talking about life up at the mine? The conditions. What it was like when he came home? Mining conditions were not good. You know, in any estimation. They were cold and damp and hard work and too little reward for it. But he really didn’t talk much about it. It wasn’t something that he really made a big deal out of. Did he ever bring rocks home? Do you remember gold, a ? of gold or anything? No, he brought home some lead and some silver. He had all kinds of ore samples. Everywhere. Because he’d bring home bits and pieces and stuff at work, that would be interesting. Some really pretty stuff. What was your mom doing at this time? Growing up primarily she worked at the hospital… That was the Fairplay Hospital. Yes, the one where the equipment buildings are now on Castello. And she worked there and then for a while she worked at the dry cleaning business, which was over on Front Street. I think it’s a candy (cabinet)? shop now. Okay, that was a dry cleaning. She worked for him for, I don’t know, three or four years and then went back to work at the hospital. When she worked there when she retired?? Do you remember what that place was called? Foxy’s. Clarence Fox was the owner. Do you know anything about him? Not really. Was the Hand Hotel going at that time? �It was going. I mean you could go in there and get a meal. We used to go in quite a bit and get coffee. And it was kind of a coffee shop and stuff. They didn’t seem to mind people coming in and having coffee and sitting there and visiting. It was something to do and get out of the house for a few moments. And they used to hold dances every once in a while. Part of the time they had a bar downstairs and part of the time it was upstairs. As a teenager did you go to many dances? We had a lot of dances. Where were they? Everywhere. Jefferson used to have their annual firemen’s ball every February. Hartsel would have their dances periodically at the hotel. Fairplay would have dances periodically at the Legion Hut. Or the Fairplay Hotel would have something special. Or at that time it was called the Playmor, which is now the Friendship Inn, they would have something going there. So there was always usually something along that line. To go and listen to the music and dance if you wanted to. How would you get there? Did your folks bring you? Did you have cars? Usually you borrowed the family car or a bunch of you would get together and go. You know, and they would borrow a family car or whatever. You got there anyway you could. Sometimes you walked. Then did you graduate from Fairplay school? What did you do after that? Uh, huh. Got married. What’s your husband’s name? Jim. How’d you meet? Did you meet Jim in town? Was he living in Fairplay? He was ranching. He was working for a ranch outside of Fairplay. I met him in a bar. My dad was playing music that night. And he had just come back from shipping cows for his boss, and was headed home. And he decided to stop in and have a beer before he left, before he got home. My mother had known him about six months before I met him—about five months. Little did he know, that one stop. Sealed his fate. So how long did you date? About two and a half years. And where did you get married? In New Mexico. It’s a family trait. Yes. Where in New Mexico? We were married in Taos. It was fun. We didn’t want anybody to know and we kept it a pretty good secret for quite a while. You mean after you got married you still kept it a secret? For how long? About four months. Were you really young? Or what reason did you want to keep it a secret? �I got married before I graduated from high school. So I wanted to graduate without everybody knowing. Actually we kept it secret longer than that. But it was fun. It was fun. We just did things different. I’m not a conventionalist. Where did you settle down then? Where did you live? We lived on the ranch where he was working at the time. The Barbie. He doesn’t ranch any more. We lived there—the first five years we moved twenty-nine times. Just to different ranches? Was that an economic thing? I think so. They put us wherever they needed us. Who’s they? Whoever Jim was working for. They kind of put us wherever they needed us, so we just moved from one place to another. Were you doing ranch work? Uh, huh. And then we went off on our own. Started your own ranch. We started our own outfit. And where was that? Well we leased several places in the park and moved back and forth around different places. But we pretty much… And what about the kids? When the kids came along they just did what we were doing. Tell me about the changes you’ve seen in ranching. As I alluded to earlier, the biggest thing was the water going and the ranches being subdivided and chopped up. And one of the things I think to me is the biggest, most significant loss, and I don’t think anybody really understands it, is that back in the earlier times, hay was shipped out of South Park to the czar of Russia, to the queen of England, for their horses. Because there is no place that produces as high a quality feed as was produced in South Park. The hay is a short hay--it’s kind of hard to explain--but you can feed less hay to an animal than hay brought in from Gunnison or San Luis Valley or whatever. You feed this amount of South Park hay, you’ll have to feed this amount to sustain the same feed content. The nutritional values, yah. Feeding South Park hay, and stuff, you don’t have to feed as much grain, say to a horse. You don’t have to give him as much grain to maintain better body condition. When did that start to change? For me coming here I think of it as really dry, even almost barren, in the areas that you’re talking about. Right. The change started in…the water started being sold in the very, very early sixties. Do you know what triggered that? People could make more money selling their water than they could make selling their ranch. Most of the people—I won’t say all—but most of the people who sold their water, sold their water here, sold their land, and went someplace else to set up shop. So it set them up in a ranch somewhere else where they could make a better living? Either set them up or they could retire. And they could not make that kind of money ranching— ranching economics just wasn’t there. Ranch life, you either love it or you hate it. There’s no in between. Was there a bitterness or resentment at that time, when those first people started to sell off their water? �Oh, yeah. Did people grasp what it would do over the long haul? My father fought the Denver Water Board back in the late thirties, when they first came back, because they had already purchased Antero Reservoir and had started building up the dam and stuff at that point. One of probably his biggest soap boxes was the water misuse. He fought them tooth and nail. He fought them every avenue he could. Because he foresaw what actually has become a reality. He foresaw happening and tried every way he could as an individual to fight it. If you ever get a chance, read the book “Camelot Desert” by Mark Reasoner. If you want to know something about the water issues and stuff. It’s kind of dry reading, but he calls it like it is. There is a lot of bitterness. There’s a lot of hard feelings among the water people because so many people have moved in and they don’t understand the crucial necessity of water and this area. We sit in a basin up here. Now we have water up here and underneath is a basin. This water underneath—and this is where the conjunctive use deal comes in—the water underneath feeds out, wherever else it goes, it feeds out underneath someplace. It contributes water to the underground table somewhere along the Rocky Mountain Range. There’s a guy that Jim works with out east of Colorado Springs who watches Leadville in the winter to see how much water he’s going to have way out by ? And he said—I think it’s his grandfather that started the place— so they have watched this traditionally for decades and have a historical background. Snowpack in Leadville affects what they have for water out there in their springs and ponds and stuff. And so by taking this water away from the hay fields and stuff, we drop down the level. If that conjunctive use project ever comes back, we’re going to drop even more. If that’s the case, there’s nothing out there. There’s nothing out there for who knows how far. It’s not just what happens here. We’re at the top of the line. With the meadows and creeks…?, they always had water to call upon. With underground storage in the meadows and boglands and wetlands, there was always water to tap and call for. We don’t have that now. If we have one more winter like this last winter was, they’re going to be up a creek without a paddle. Have you ever seen a drought on this level here? On this level, no. No, never. Tell me about ranching now where you are. It’s tough. Right now the way it’s looking, we may have to sell out. We may have to sell our cows because we have no pasture. We can’t afford to buy $250 a ton hay. What does it normally cost? In a normal year. In a normal year if you have to buy hay—which we have been fortunate, we’ve been able to raise a lot of our hay—if we have to buy it, it usually costs us anywhere from fifty to seventy-five dollars a ton. It takes about two ton for cows. Okay so at $250 a ton, we’re not talking any other costs, any other maintenance, you’ve got $500 in this cow and she’s going to bring you a calf that’s going to bring you around $400. Economically you’re already shafted. That’s not paying pasture, that’s not paying the gas it takes to feed them, that’s not any of your other costs. Colorado has already lost seventy-two percent of their cattle. Now you’re talking this year? This year. Colorado as a whole has already lost—I don’t know if this is as of the first of July or the first of August—people have sold out and moved out of Colorado, seventy-two percent of the cattle. San Luis Valley has lost ninety percent. And there are still people talking, they’re going to have to sell. Because we’ve got no pasture. We’re not going to have anywhere to water. If we stay in business we’re going to have to come up with some creative ideas. Do you mean literally like water for the animals to drink? Yes. We’re not going to have any place to water them because them there is no water in the creeks, there’s no water in the springs. Most of our springs have dried up. We don’t expect them to sustain water. �What about the forest service or BLM through these years? The forest service used to be a friend of the rancher. And I think depending upon who’s in there on the local level, it still is. Or they try to be. The environmentalists have made life miserable because they don’t understand. They don’t understand that to maintain a healthy forest you have to cut trees. You have to get rid of the old trees in order for the new ones to be able to make a chance. To clean up the forest floor so there’s—well, you can leave some dead, but you leave a firetrap if you don’t clean up the forest floor. Mother nature will get rid of it one way or another. I think the biggest detriment to the forest service and the BLM is the environmentalists who do not understand if you don’t graze grass it will die. Grazing is a fire detriment. It cleans up the dead grass. It gives the grass a chance to reproduce. It aerates the ground. It provides fertilizer. It is what Mother nature intended as a balance. Wildlife cannot do all of it alone. In fact, if you take the cows off, the wildlife go with them. My analogy is you go to a salad bar. You’ve got this one bowl of brown, icky lettuce. And right next to it is a bowl of very fresh, young-picked, crisp green lettuce. Now which one are you going to eat? Wildlife is that picky. Wildlife will go where the cows have cleaned up the old dead stuff and then eat the new fresh stuff that’s coming up underneath. When did this change occur with the environmentalists? It started back in the 60s. And what happened here with your ranching as that started? We have seen most of the ranchers lose their forest permits. Lose them for what reason? Because they don’t want cows on the forest. Environmentalists have put so much pressure on keeping cows off of the forest. Is this due to population changes up here? Somewhat. You have more of an urban population moving in. You have a much greater urban population. You have more people go into the forest and they don’t want cows in their vicinity. They don’t want ‘em around, they don’t want ‘em close. They don’t want ‘em around the waterways where everybody wants to camp by the creek and the cows go to the creek to drink. The environmental influence has been telling everybody that it’s not good for cows to be allowed on the creek because they cause erosion. No, they don’t. Because they will go where it’s gently sloped. They use the Tarryall River where it esses real bad, as to caving in the banks, and washing dirt into the river and carrying sediment downstream. That’s Mother nature’s way of working. The cows don’t cross that because they won’t go to that high bank. They’ll go to where the sandbar goes out into the bend. And they’ll go in on the low side and back out. But environmentalists don’t understand that. They see a cow trail—it starts out this far from the bank, but over the years the river keeps encroaching and so pretty soon you’ve got the cow trail right next to it. Nobody understands, people from the city do not understand life cycles with the environment. With grass, they’ve proved in Arizona, that by taking the sheep out, where the Navahos quit raising sheep, the grass died. There’s nothing there to scatter seeds; there’s nothing there to poke it in the ground. What has it done in town? I think we’ve seen a change in the population because of those ideas we’ve lost our grocery stores. For a number of years we did not have any. We lost our pharmacy. We’ve had one come back, but again the way people have done insurance and stuff, she may have to close her doors. We’ve seen all of the gas stations go bye-bye. We’ve seen all of the service vendors go bye-bye. Because, well, I’ll go to Denver because I can get it done down there cheaper. But then, you can also buy your groceries, buy your gas, buy your clothes. All of this has gone away because the �urban people, its something to do on the weekends. Travel has made this much easier, the faster cars, better highways. That has precipitated it. Where do you see this heading? If you’re out on the ranch where do you see the ranching going. What do you see the population here, what kind of town is it going to be? Bedroom community for Summit County. And the ranching. They will get their recreational area and that’s all that’s going to be left, will be recreation. That’s what everybody has been working on for the last twenty years to make this a recreation center. Fishing, boating—of course if we don’t have water, we won’t have to worry. Hunting—they have really been pushing recreation. Snowmobiling in the winter, winter hiking--I’m not saying this is bad, but they’re not stable. You have two sons. Can you tell me their names? Bob is our oldest son. He’s married. His wife is the assistant manager for the Western Horseman magazine in the Springs. They live between Woodland Park and Deckers. They were in the middle of the Hayman fire. They did not lose their home, but they were evacuated for two weeks. They have two horses and a dog. And your other son? He lives right now in Penrose. He is raising two sons and he’s ? My oldest son also is in partnership with his father-in-law on a backhoe business where they did basements, septics, driveways, utility lines, etcetera for building. So Justin is the second son. He’s the one with two children. Tell me what you would want to add to teach them what South Park was like. You’ve got two little grandkids. Can you add anything that would give them an appreciation of what life was like here that they won’t see. Basically the ranching. The ranching is important. Anything you’d tell them? To appreciate the necessities of life. I think that if I was going to tell anybody—it’s probably thirty years too late, but I think the biggest travesty the county, the state people as a whole would be selling the water. Because it will have the most devastating long term effects. You’re painting a pretty dim view. Is there any positive news in all this? It depends on people’s choices. I mean they could reverse some of it. But I don’t foresee that happening. I think if they would allow it, I think they would be putting feathers in their nest. Do you think this drought maybe scared some people into different action? No, the cities wanted control of the water, they wanted to be able to control it. They have to see it in the reservoir. Or have to see it on paper, that it’s there. Having it in the ground, they don’t have the concept that it’s there providing for them. Maybe in another ten or fifteen years. But I doubt if I see it in my lifetime. Thanks so much for taking the time with me today. I really appreciate it. � https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/fe7a98226a1cff3755ec7ed45e930e93.mp3 81310f56825500d7a1dcef88d7353619 https://pclha.cvlcollections.org/files/original/cc2be60b8364958f1e73f3ef6312aaf3.mp3 cfa78046e7fc045a7c7d829daca1165c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound IIIF Collection Metadata UUID 5c855902-aef6-4cbb-bc61-7406bfa5e0aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karen Denison, August 27, 2002 Subject The topic of the resource Work and family; Ranches – Colorado; Farm life Description An account of the resource Interview with Karen Denison recalling details about Garo, Co., ranching, railroads, Hartsel hotel, father's role as a local entertainer and agricultural contribution Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Cara Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audiotapes; Oral history interview recorded on audio tape; The interview consists of one audio-cassette with recordings on two sides of the tape. The digitized interview consist of two files. A transcript accompanies the recording. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2002-8-27 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Denison, Karen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted: https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en Relation A related resource Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context oh_Denison_K_001a; oh_Denison_K_001b Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado (state); Park (county); Fairplay (inhabited place) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Park County Local History Archive Oral History Collection IIIF Item Metadata UUID 36b56c93-bdd4-412f-8585-38a39091a7ca